Having played a fair number of battles I'm having no problems with the system overall, but my players have raised a few points that I'm not sure how to answer.

Alone on the Battlefield
1. A single knight cannot get a result of Triumph. However, if he attempts to Run Away this means he can never move back more than 1 zone, whereas a unit can. Would it be appropriate in this circumstance to count a critical as a triumph?
2. Can a lone knight rejoin his unit only when he makes it to the back of the field and is out of battle?

Charging
You get the charge bonus at battle start if your commander rolls well, but what about during the battle? If you choose the Charge maneuver do you always get it? The rules say yes, but one of my players queried it recently and when faced with the question I was unsure.

Enemy Camp
1. My knights got to the enemy camp in their last battle. I gave them the 50 glory for doing so and said that as long as they survived the round they would then trigger the -20 Battle Intensity Modifier. I rolled 1d6 opponents for each of them and they faced them individually for 1 round only. That's what I think the rules are saying but is my interpretation right?
2. Is it possible for enemy troops to reach *your* camp? Is this assumed to have happened whenever you recoil or withdraw into your camp with an enemy still engaged?

Routing
1. My knights survived the above and triggered the -20 BI mod which brought it below zero. The enemy army began to leave the field, but there was still another battle round to go so my PK commander rolled Battle vs BI albeit with the BI now on 0. Should I have done that?
2. Once BI is at zero does that mean the enemy is routing? If yes, then shouldn't that be the end of the battle (I'm uncertain because BI has to be at 0 for 2 rounds to get a decisive victory)? If no, then when is the enemy army assumed to be routing? I know they retreat at 15 or less but when do they rout? This is important because routing and retreating are both pre-requisites for certain pursuit options.

1. A single knight cannot get a result of Triumph. However, if he attempts to Run Away this means he can never move back more than 1 zone, whereas a unit can. Would it be appropriate in this circumstance to count a critical as a triumph?
According to the rules, a lone knight can never move more than a single zone per round because of the Triumph limitation. I think it is reasonable to amend Run Away! with a house rule allowing for 2 zones of movement on a critical Battle roll.


2. Can a lone knight rejoin his unit only when he makes it to the back of the field and is out of battle?
Yes. "When a unit is Disengaged, its members may - Look for his group if he is alone (attempt Awareness roll: success = he sees them and can join them in time for the next battle round)."


You get the charge bonus at battle start if your commander rolls well, but what about during the battle? If you choose the Charge maneuver do you always get it? The rules say yes, but one of my players queried it recently and when faced with the question I was unsure.
The First Charge Bonus only applies to the first charge.


My knights got to the enemy camp in their last battle. I gave them the 50 glory for doing so and said that as long as they survived the round they would then trigger the -20 Battle Intensity Modifier. I rolled 1d6 opponents for each of them and they faced them individually for 1 round only. That's what I think the rules are saying but is my interpretation right?
Yes, as long as your knights were not pushed back (or voluntarily moved back) by the results of that single round, then they they should trigger the -20 Intensity modifier.


Is it possible for enemy troops to reach *your* camp? Is this assumed to have happened whenever you recoil or withdraw into your camp with an enemy still engaged?
I don't think there's anything in the system that would cause your camp to be reached by the enemy, but it would make for a great scripted event. I've never considered the enemy to follow a unit directly on a recoil or withdrawal.


My knights survived the above and triggered the -20 BI mod which brought it below zero. The enemy army began to leave the field, but there was still another battle round to go so my PK commander rolled Battle vs BI albeit with the BI now on 0. Should I have done that?
The commander should be rolling battle versus Unit Intensity which is always at least 1 (see Unit Intensity 0 = 1). There is always a chance that Unit Intensity will hit a critical, even when the enemy army is routing.


Once BI is at zero does that mean the enemy is routing? If yes, then shouldn't that be the end of the battle (I'm uncertain because BI has to be at 0 for 2 rounds to get a decisive victory)? If no, then when is the enemy army assumed to be routing? I know they retreat at 15 or less but when do they rout? This is important because routing and retreating are both pre-requisites for certain pursuit options.
The enemy is not routing until the start of the second consecutive round at BI = 0.

Whew, good questions. I hope this helped (and I hope I'm at least mostly correct).

Thanks for the help, Russell. I'd appreciate your thoughts on some of the implications;




My knights got to the enemy camp in their last battle. I gave them the 50 glory for doing so and said that as long as they survived the round they would then trigger the -20 Battle Intensity Modifier. I rolled 1d6 opponents for each of them and they faced them individually for 1 round only. That's what I think the rules are saying but is my interpretation right?
Yes, as long as your knights were not pushed back (or voluntarily moved back) by the results of that single round, then they they should trigger the -20 Intensity modifier.


This sounds as if you are applying "Triumph/Win/Lose/Crush" results to this combat but I thought it was handled differently, ie, the 1d6 opponents faced were just single men vs your knights, not unit vs unit. How would you apply a unit result if one knight faced 6 opponents while another faced just 1? Count all rolls together?




Is it possible for enemy troops to reach *your* camp? Is this assumed to have happened whenever you recoil or withdraw into your camp with an enemy still engaged?
I don't think there's anything in the system that would cause your camp to be reached by the enemy, but it would make for a great scripted event. I've never considered the enemy to follow a unit directly on a recoil or withdrawal.
The reason I assume the enemy does follow you is because your unit is either engaged or disengaged, depending on the combat outcome. For example, a Loss while trying to Run Away results in "Recoil 1 zone; Disordered & Engaged". Furthermore, unless the result specifically says "Disengaged" I always assume the unit to be engaged at the start of the next round. Therefore, if you were in Zone 3, had to recoil 1 zone disorderly to Zone 2, then suffered a further push back into Zone 1, you would find yourself in your own camp with the hostile unit that put you there. Does this constitute enemies in your base camp worthy of the +20 Battle Mod?




My knights survived the above and triggered the -20 BI mod which brought it below zero. The enemy army began to leave the field, but there was still another battle round to go so my PK commander rolled Battle vs BI albeit with the BI now on 0. Should I have done that?
The commander should be rolling battle versus Unit Intensity which is always at least 1 (see Unit Intensity 0 = 1). There is always a chance that Unit Intensity will hit a critical, even when the enemy army is routing.

Yep of course, error on my part there :(. With regard to BI, is zero the lowest it can go or should it be tracked negatively? This is important for determining the battle outcome. If BI only goes to zero then it's entirely possible (in fact 50% likely) that the random battle events roll will push it higher each following round. I did track negatively in my last battle. The BI went to -4, and my PKs were almost certain of a victory, when the battle event roll (a 16) took it back up to 2. They could still have won but the PK commander fumbled and was unable to perform a maneuver capable of a -2 Intensity result. Thus the battle was indecisive (a moment I referred to as "Snatching stalemate from the jaws of glorious victory". If BI should is not supposed to be tracked below zero it becomes much harder to achieve victory.




Once BI is at zero does that mean the enemy is routing? If yes, then shouldn't that be the end of the battle (I'm uncertain because BI has to be at 0 for 2 rounds to get a decisive victory)? If no, then when is the enemy army assumed to be routing? I know they retreat at 15 or less but when do they rout? This is important because routing and retreating are both pre-requisites for certain pursuit options.
The enemy is not routing until the start of the second consecutive round at BI = 0.

OK. I understand what you're saying but the impact of this raises more questions. If the enemy is not routing till the start of the second consecutive round of zero BI, then at that moment a) the battle is considered won b) the Pursuit option seems pointless. The prerequisite for its use is "Enemy army retreating involuntarily" - which i presume to mean routing - but if the battle is already won why bother? In fact why are there combat outcomes listed if it can only be used when such outcomes are irrelevant?

If my presumption is wrong, then what does constitute "Enemy army retreating involuntarily"? If it's when BI drops to 15 or lower then what constitutes "Enemy army retreating voluntarily" as I currently assume BI 15 or less to mean this.

Oh, man, you're challenging me ;D Keep it coming. Let's see how deep we can go!
I hope this is helpful. I'm having to dive deep into referencing the rules. I think I've got the right idea, but I'm no expert and I'm definitely not an authority on the Battle rules (I've only run two myself).



This sounds as if you are applying "Triumph/Win/Lose/Crush" results to this combat but I thought it was handled differently, ie, the 1d6 opponents faced were just single men vs your knights, not unit vs unit. How would you apply a unit result if one knight faced 6 opponents while another faced just 1? Count all rolls together?

I do still apply "Triumph/Win/Lose/Crush" results since the 1d6 opponents per PC knight only fight for one round. Count up the individual outcomes to determine the result. If PC#1 wins 2/2 but PC#2 wins 1/5, then the total 3/7 wins is an overall loss.



The reason I assume the enemy does follow you is because your unit is either engaged or disengaged, depending on the combat outcome. For example, a Loss while trying to Run Away results in "Recoil 1 zone; Disordered & Engaged". Furthermore, unless the result specifically says "Disengaged" I always assume the unit to be engaged at the start of the next round. Therefore, if you were in Zone 3, had to recoil 1 zone disorderly to Zone 2, then suffered a further push back into Zone 1, you would find yourself in your own camp with the hostile unit that put you there. Does this constitute enemies in your base camp worthy of the +20 Battle Mod?

I think the system is a little more abstract than that. Engaged just means that the unit is is still in the fray, not necessarily attached to a specific opponent. You are correct in that unless otherwise specified as disengaged, a unit is engaged in battle. Having a enemy unit follow you into Zones 2 or 1 on a particularly bad recoil is a great scripted event.

From The First Charge
"Noncombat Zones: Zones 1-2 and 8-9. These are noncombat zones, which allow freer movement for the friendly troops who belong on that side. When your knights get to the enemy's rear, there may be enemy troops there, either running before them, from reserves, or even latecomers. In that regard, enemy troops' presence makes these a combat zone."

Getting pushed back into Zone two places the unit in a non-combat zone and is officially Out of Combat. Unless an explicit scripted event places opponents here there is nobody to fight in zone 2 (or 1). Your choices would be limited to Advance, Remain Disengaged, or Remove. Engagement is not important here as there's nobody to fight. Note that all three options have the unit disengaged at the beginning of the next round.



The reason I assume the enemy does follow you is because your unit is either engaged or disengaged, depending on the combat outcome. For example, a Loss while trying to Run Away results in "Recoil 1 zone; Disordered & Engaged". Furthermore, unless the result specifically says "Disengaged" I always assume the unit to be engaged at the start of the next round. Therefore, if you were in Zone 3, had to recoil 1 zone disorderly to Zone 2, then suffered a further push back into Zone 1, you would find yourself in your own camp with the hostile unit that put you there. Does this constitute enemies in your base camp worthy of the +20 Battle Mod?

Like I mentioned above, you've got a great reason to introduce opponents into Zone 2 or 1 throuh a scripted event. Getting pushed back into these zones means you are pretty well automatically disengaged due to lack of opponents if you do not script the event, trumping the engaged status from the maneuver result.



With regard to BI, is zero the lowest it can go or should it be tracked negatively?

This is a very good question and I don't see evidence for either option in the rules. The closest we get is for BI starting at 0 for two consecutive rounds initiating a rout. This suggests that 0 is the lowest (or it might say "0 or less"), but it isn't explicit.

I would rule towards 0 being the floor for BI. You're right in that decisive victories are much more difficult to obtain, but I think this feels right. It gives armies a better opportunity to rout for several rounds and claim that they stayed in the fight for longer than they did. A few rounds of Go After the Enemy maneuvers make it very easy for the PC unit to force BI to stay low, too. I do like your "Snatching stalemate from the jaws of glorious victory" example. Decisive victories are even harder with BI minimum at 0, but at least you can still show victory in several rounds of the opponent retreating (and probably letting you into the enemy camp for some great loot).



If the enemy is not routing till the start of the second consecutive round of zero BI, then at that moment a) the battle is considered won b) the Pursuit option seems pointless.

The battle is not necessarily immediately over at the start of that second consecutive round of zero BI when the rout begins. In the After the Battle section, this condition is only one of the options for ending a battle. A mean Gamemaster might deny knights the opportunity to chase routing opponents and immediately call the battle, but the fun isn't over until the GM says so. If the battle hasn't gone deep into nighttime I would grant at least one or two rounds of Chase opportunities to my players.



If my presumption is wrong, then what does constitute "Enemy army retreating involuntarily"? If it's when BI drops to 15 or lower then what constitutes "Enemy army retreating voluntarily" as I currently assume BI 15 or less to mean this.

I suppose a GM can script events where units are retreating outside of the BI 15/0 rules to open up pursuit options for PC units. This would be a "voluntary" retreat.

I think we may have to appeal to a higher power (Greg :)) because, unless things have changed, there are some contradictions.



Getting pushed back into Zone two places the unit in a non-combat zone and is officially Out of Combat. Unless an explicit scripted event places opponents here there is nobody to fight in zone 2 (or 1). Your choices would be limited to Advance, Remain Disengaged, or Remove. Engagement is not important here as there's nobody to fight. Note that all three options have the unit disengaged at the beginning of the next round.


I'm fairly certain this is not the case, as Greg points out here http://www.gspendragon.com/roundtable/index.php?topic=537.0 (specifically the first reply). I agree that combat is abstract and that being engaged does not mean you're engaged to the same foe all the time, but it does mean you're engaged to *someone*, even if you happen to have been pushed back into zone 1 or 2.

Of course, I could come up with workable solutions to the questions I've raised, but I'd like to know the official rule first (or at least hear how it's meant to be played) before I start tinkering. :)

Good find on the forum posting. The book is not so specific. You may want to start another thread with that single question for Greg, I think he prefers one question to a thread so they are easier to follow.



No. The unit result mu also say that they are disengaged.
If your unit is pushed that far back, then the enemy will pursue if possible, engaged all the wa.