I saw this post yesterday on these boards which caught my eye: http://www.gspendragon.com/roundtable/index.php?topic=1195.0

This character sheet caught my attention because I was never able to get BoK&L and so apart from the references to Spear Expertise/Distaff on this forum and the Manipulate skill for the Italians, I had no idea what the various other skills were.

Now I've seen these, I have a mixed bag of related questions I'm hoping some of you can help me with.


What skills match up to what culture? I can guess Nordic Charm must be a Danish or similar skill but what about the rest?
How have those of you who genned characters using these rules found these special skills? Are they a notable advantage? Do you think any are a "better deal" than others?
If you were adapting other cultures into Pendragon, what speciality skills would you give them? (I'm particularly thinking of Saracens here which I don't think are in BoK&L)
And, since there isn't really another forum appropriate to ask the question: Greg, what's the current timescale on getting Book of Britons into the wild?

Saracens actually do appear, kinda; Islam doesn't appear for another century after the GPC ends, but Islamic culture does make an appearance as the Zazamancs and other "pagans" from Eschenbach's Parzival. Their specialty is Medicine, which combines First Aid and Chirurgery; you can see my Zazamanc character at http://www.russelldeneault.com/gpc/tiki-index.php?page=Yusuf

There doesn't seem to be any real advantage to these skills over Cymric characters. First, their own Spear Expertise is really good, and second, the Cymri are deliberately better than other cultures to discourage powergaming, as they just start with more skill points (the Italian preview should give you an idea of this; weapon skills starting at 7 instead of 10, etc.); this skill point deficit balances out the advantage these skills might give a foreign character.

Some of these skills are less "useful" than others; the Pictish Stalk skill, in addition to covering hunting, counts as a stealth skill, and the Hunnish Pony Defense skill helps to stay alive in a fight (though it requires that you be on a pony rather than a warhorse, and it might kill the mount on a poor roll). On the other hand, Occitanian Oinology and Spanish Gastronomy act as directed traits to either Temperate or Indulgent. Overall, though, the skills don't act to make these other cultures overpowered or crippled, but they do add a lot of flavor.

[li]And, since there isn't really another forum appropriate to ask the question: Greg, what's the current timescale on getting Book of Britons into the wild?



As good as any place to ask. :)
Same answer: I don't know

However, without knowing dates, I can attest that things are moving forward
we will probably see the old GPC items in print again before the new ones are out, though

watch my Camelot announcements for updates

Saracens actually do appear, kinda; Islam doesn't appear for another century after the GPC ends, but Islamic culture does make an appearance as the Zazamancs and other "pagans" from Eschenbach's Parzival. Their specialty is Medicine, which combines First Aid and Chirurgery; you can see my Zazamanc character at http://www.russelldeneault.com/gpc/tiki-index.php?page=Yusuf

Yeah, I know Islam isn't strictly speaking correct to the time period, but that never stopped Sir Palomides. :-) I didn't realise the Zazamancs would scratch that itch, thanks for that: and I suppose Medicine is a pretty smarty choice.


There doesn't seem to be any real advantage to these skills over Cymric characters. First, their own Spear Expertise is really good, and second, the Cymri are deliberately better than other cultures to discourage powergaming, as they just start with more skill points (the Italian preview should give you an idea of this; weapon skills starting at 7 instead of 10, etc.); this skill point deficit balances out the advantage these skills might give a foreign character.

I had heard Spear Expertise is a really cool skill, yes, and that the game was balanced towards Cymrics still being the best choice so that foreign knights won't stomp all over them.


Some of these skills are less "useful" than others; the Pictish Stalk skill, in addition to covering hunting, counts as a stealth skill, and the Hunnish Pony Defense skill helps to stay alive in a fight (though it requires that you be on a pony rather than a warhorse, and it might kill the mount on a poor roll). On the other hand, Occitanian Oinology and Spanish Gastronomy act as directed traits to either Temperate or Indulgent. Overall, though, the skills don't act to make these other cultures overpowered or crippled, but they do add a lot of flavor.


Cool: so they just make each culture different without really tipping the power level. I knew that was the plan, but was curious how it actually worked in practice. :-) From the ones you've listed, Stalk and Medicine do sound quite useful, and I thought Manipulate for Italians was cool as well. (mainly if you're trying to be an Honest knight for other reasons, i.e. religion)

And, since there isn't really another forum appropriate to ask the question: Greg, what's the current timescale on getting Book of Britons into the wild?


Same answer: I don't know

However, without knowing dates, I can attest that things are moving forward
we will probably see the old GPC items in print again before the new ones are out, though

Thanks for the reply, Greg, and for sticking that question in the middle of an otherwise crunch-focused post. :-)

Sorry to hear it's still not any more concrete than before - I could never justify the expense of shipping BoK&L over to the UK, so buying a PDF of advanced char gen for 5th ed has been a dream of mine for a while.

I believe that the Roman skill Law is a good one also, since it puts together with an high rating a couple of skills which can be very useful for a political-minded knight.

I believe that the Roman skill Law is a good one also, since it puts together with an high rating a couple of skills which can be very useful for a political-minded knight.


We have a Roman knight in our campaign which has a tendency to be more political than combat orientated. This skill has proved to be highly significant time and time again.

I assume culture-specific skills are advanced in play exactly as normal in play, and that during character gen you can advance them in the same way as anything else?

Hopefully, I can find out for myself soon just how good Law is now the wheels are turning on a BoK&L PDF release.

I assume culture-specific skills are advanced in play exactly as normal in play, and that during character gen you can advance them in the same way as anything else?

Yes and yes. Given that they cover the ground of two (or more) skills they get more opportunities for checks, which means they will tend to advance a little faster (to start with at least).

Law (which covers Intrigue and Courtesy) is *very* useful for a courtier. The Roman chap in my campaign is the party's go to guy whenever there's a question of wheels moving within wheels.

Regards
Luke

In the absence of a copy of the BoK&L (the latest eBay auction plus carriage to Europe was a bit too rich for my budget) I'm currently pondering a way to improvise the character generation for the time being. (Mainly so that I don't have to try and convert existing Cymric characters to a new system later on.)

Let us imagine I did the core-rules character generation but replaced Lance and Spear with a single skill. Obivously I'll miss some of the finer detail of the new system - from what I've seen on GSPendragon.com and in reviews, there's many different tables for different periods and styles of different cultures - but will this make an effective fix so converting to BoK&L later on wouldn't be too awkward?

Does anyone have any experience in converting from KAP core to BoK&L mid-game? Did you change the Cymric characters or leave them as they were, waiting until children or what have you?

From p. 51 of Book Of Knights And Ladies:


Updating Established Characters

Players will want to update their previously played characters to reflect the change in their Cymric skills, especially Spear Expertise. Most characters will have Lance as the highest ability, and that assumption is used throughout this conversion process. If it is Spear or Great Spear, adjust accordingly.

1. The highest value from among Lance, Spear or Great Spear is now his Spear Expertise value.

2. Add up the number of points that have been added to Spear or Great Spear skill. (Since Cymri used to start with Spear 6, any points above 6 will be added here. Great Spear started at 0, so all points in that skill will be used.) These are your new Bonus Points.

3. Enter the Spear Expertise value under Lance, Spear and Great Spear.

4. Add the Bonus Points (from Step 2) to any other combat skills that you wish, as long as none of them are raised above 15.

Thanks for that Undead Trout. I was a bit worried about trying to insert in afterwards but that's pretty straightforward.

Random musing: Why wasn't the Roman specialty skill named Civics? It seems a much better fit, much more evocative of urbanized culture. (I think it shall henceforth become Civics in my own games.)

From Cthulhu Invictus:

The Civics skill encompasses a character’s understanding of Roman law and government, and can be used to determine whether a given action is legal. It can also be used to navigate the Byzantine system of Roman government. A successful skill check can provide the investigator with information about who controls the ports or whose palm needs to be greased so the law will look the other way.

Random musing: Why wasn't the Roman specialty skill named Civics? It seems a much better fit, much more evocative of urbanized culture.

Pretty simple really.
Basically because the skill is not about civics, but about Roman Law.