I'm looking for a bit of clarification on the Grades of Maintenance rules on pages 156-157 of the KAP 5.1 core book and how they relate to the Complete Landholding System from the Book of the Manor.

To put this in context, I'm having a bit of a disagreement with one of the players as to how grades of maintenance is intended to function. I made a ruling at the table when it came up, but I wanted to check with you guys before we totally settle it going forward.

So the question is:

1. Is a knight's grade of maintenance (Impoverished, Poor, Ordinary, Rich, Superlative) determined solely by the amount of income he receives in a certain year (regardless of how or whether it's spent), or is it determined by how much the knight spends? The core book puts everything in terms of income. However, there is an implication, especially under the rich knight and superlative knight entries, that the income should be spent on "maintenance" or "upkeep."

2. If grade of maintenance is determined by how much the knight spends rather than his income, then what counts? In other words, does the knight have to spend £9 on the upkeep of himself, his squire, horses and wife to qualify as a rich knight? Or does he count as a rich knight if he spends £6 on those things and an additional £3 on maintaining his stone tower, apiary and fish pond?

Thanks!

I'm looking for a bit of clarification on the Grades of Maintenance rules on pages 156-157 of the KAP 5.1 core book and how they relate to the Complete Landholding System from the Book of the Manor.

The stated amounts must be entirely spent on maintenance. It represents the cost of keeping clothing nice, food and entertainment, etc.
Money spent on manorial improvements does not count towards maintenance

Hi Greg,

Thank you very much for your reply!

That was my ruling, but the confirmation will make it go down easier. The player in question lost his knight in a duel with Sir Blaines of Levcomagus just prior to the Battle of Lindsey, and that winter his wife and child died in childbirth and his two-year-old heir also died. If he had been living as a rich knight, his wife and newborn, at least, would have survived.

Since there was confusion with the rule, I've offered to let the player retroactively spend an extra £3 on his maintenance.

A knight with one manor with no improvements and a steward has an income of 6L and pays 6L for his maintenance. He's considered an ordinary knight?

A knight with two manors without improvements, a wife and a vassal knight has an income of 12L and maintenance of 12L. He's an ordinary knight as well?

The money spent directly on the knight (and family) is the amount used for maintenance
A landlord knight with 2 manors, and a household knight has an income of £12, but he spends £6 on himself - the rest is to maintain the household knight.
A landlord knight with 2 manors, one of which belongs to a vassal knight, has an income of £6 and a maintenance of £6. The vassal knight manages the other manor as his own, and so he gets the income from that manor, not the landlord knight.

I hate to butt in on this with my first post, but I was under the impression that a household knight cost £4 since he is unmarried, leaving £2 for the Landed Knight.

How does one become an impoverished knight?

I hate to butt in on this with my first post, but I was under the impression that a household knight cost £4 since he is unmarried, leaving £2 for the Landed Knight.


That is how we play it as well. Also, we allow the knights to use loot to bolster up their standard of living; all that matters is how much resources (represented by the libra-value of loot and manorial income) the knight is spending on living.

So a landed knight who has a bad harvest (L3) but is willing to spend L6 extra from the loot he has gained, would be a Rich Knight for the upkeep purposes.

A household knight would normally be maintained by the Lord at the ordinary knight level (L4 for unmarried, L6 for married - a mark of favor), but even he can spend extra L2 (or L3 if married) of loot to count as a Rich Knight. (There might be a chance of upsetting the Lord here if he is prickly and takes your extra upkeep as a hint that he is too stingy with you and thus takes offense. I'd check with the GM to make sure I am not unwittingly causing offense.)

We also had one male knight + female knight married couple. My ruling as the GM was that they'd count as two unmarried knights for upkeep purposes. On hindsight, I'd likely bump the upkeep from L8 to L9 for the kids, too.

Impoverished knight is someone who barely has food to eat. I'd say L1 upkeep (or might even try to survive on the hospitality as a knight errant). A knight might find himself in these circumstances if his lands have been raided heavily, a famine-level crop failure or his lands have been conquered/confiscated. Or he might be a young knight without a lord to take care of his upkeep and he has been unable to make money as a mercenary/jouster/bridge challenger.

How does one become an impoverished knight?


By not having enough in his treasure to cover the cost of spending £6 for his upkeep during the winter phase.

The PKs in the group I am gaming with a few knights were only poor the first few years, then they got married and started raiding when they could. Now 1 of them very close with more upkeep than income, I cant see how he will maintain his lifestyle without having problems once he runs out of plunder/treasury. Of course, with the Anarchy looming, the Saxon tributes and potential raids may force a few back to financially troubling times. Also a few will lose manors(gained via marriage ) not in Salisbury unless they can retake them by force. Im so looking forward to the Anarchy period.

How does one become an impoverished knight?

By not having enough in his treasure to cover the cost of spending £6 for his upkeep during the winter phase.


Well, if I recall correctly, if he can scrape together L3, he can make do as a Poor Knight. Which is a lot better than an Impoverished one.

Yeah, you just beat my edit :)

In chapter 8 of KAP5 it mentioned under 3L for impoverished and 3-5L for poor. I get flakey on the terms and general cause problems :'(

I hate to butt in on this with my first post, but I was under the impression that a household knight cost £4 since he is unmarried, leaving £2 for the Landed Knight.




That rule is not actually in the rulebook (maybe it's in 5.1), so I didn't mention it avoid confusion. It's a rule Greg has popularised on the forum, and has become standard for a lot of people.

Yeah,I just found it in Book of the Manor... sorry if I added any confusion!