In pendragon character generation players get one skill upgraded to 15 as standard. One of my players pointed out that the best use of this would be to raise a skill from 0 to 15 (i.e. raising a skill that is usually 0, such as axe, to 15).

In the past my players have nearly always eschewed axes, maces, etc in favor of swords and lances so it's never come up before. He does make a good point. Still it seems a bit like min-maxing to me. Is this rules legal?

No, it is not. You explicitly cannot raise skills during character generation which start at 0.

For example, I recently made a squad of pre-gens who were mostly Cymric but had one Pict and one Roman. Only the roman had any starting points in Chirugery so only he could increase it at all. (And did so to 15.) But the others could't do so nor with any other 0 skill, knightly skill or not.

You can raise skills which have at least 1 point in them, so from a certain point of view the ones with the least points are the "best" option. But in practice, they may not be the skills you need to worry most about.

No, it is not. You explicitly cannot raise skills during character generation which start at 0.

For example, I recently made a squad of pre-gens who were mostly Cymric but had one Pict and one Roman. Only the roman had any starting points in Chirugery so only he could increase it at all. (And did so to 15.) But the others could't do so nor with any other 0 skill, knightly skill or not.

Can I get a page reference on that? Pendragon 5th ed on p 31 says that any knightly skill can be raised and I was under the impression that included all combat skills.

Ah, I think I see the confusion. The explicit reference I was thinking of comes from Book of Knights & Ladies, Page 58


No skill with a beginning value of 0 or “―” may be augmented, except for combat skills. Hence, for example, no male character can have a Fashion skill when starting play

By contrast, all Pendragon 5.1 Page 29 says is


No Non-Knightly skill may be augmented (see Chapter 4). Hence, for example, no player knight can have the Chirurgery skill before starting play.

However, note that not all combat skills are Knightly! In fact, In Pendragon 5.1, only the following weapons are listed as Knightly for Cymric characters in [Brackets]:

Battle
Horsemanship
Sword

Pendragon 5th Ed explicitly lists more, including Maces and Axes, so your problem persists there. The absence of Lance must be a mistake in 5.1, dunno if maybe the text got cut for some reason.

I would probably recommend going with the BoK&L rule because it keeps characters from raising "inappropriate" skills. You may prefer to let characters spread their points into odder ideas but if they're explicitly doing it because it's "better value" then I'd feel no shame in clamping down. But hey, if you wanna see more mace-using knights, why not?

In pendragon character generation players get one skill upgraded to 15 as standard. One of my players pointed out that the best use of this would be to raise a skill from 0 to 15 (i.e. raising a skill that is usually 0, such as axe, to 15).

In the past my players have nearly always eschewed axes, maces, etc in favor of swords and lances so it's never come up before. He does make a good point. Still it seems a bit like min-maxing to me. Is this rules legal?


It is a bit like mini-maxing, but that doesn't make it wrong. Personally, I encourage my players to use that rule to take a second weapon, but often they don't. There are good reasons to prefer swords. The damage bonus you get from other weapons doesn't apply against all opponents (crucially it rarely applies against monsters), and ties occur reasonably often meaning that non-sword will be broken and the wielder probably at a devastating -5/+5 next turn.
When I design a character, I often use that rule to take a second weapon, and use one of the 4 bonuses you get at the end of generation to also take sword to 15. But most players don't do this because it is costly - there's lots of other things you can do with those bonuses.

If it bothers you, though, you could use a house rule:
Instead of "set a skill to 15", have it "set a skill at 10, or +5 to its value (usual max 15 applies)". For many of the skills players will choose (sword, horsemanship, battle, etc) the rule works exactly the same as the official rule. For raising weaker skills, they still get a decent score.

In Pendragon character generation players get one skill upgraded to 15 as standard. One of my players pointed out that the best use of this would be to raise a skill from 0 to 15 (i.e. raising a skill that is usually 0, such as axe, to 15).

In the past my players have nearly always eschewed axes, maces, etc in favor of swords and lances so it's never come up before. He does make a good point. Still it seems a bit like min-maxing to me. Is this rules legal?

As others have said, BoK&L says you cannot raise 0-point skills during character generation.

As for mini-maxing, I've given up trying to control it, except through the built-in mechanisms of the game system itself.
For new players, with their first, characters, I will emphasize it in order to help them to make a character that will have a good chance to succeed at combat
Finally, I do not feel comfortable with player characters who are always great at everything, but I increasingly enjoy the ones who have some particular quirk like a skill of 21 Mace, after subtracting the iron weapon penalty.
Also, when something is fun and quirky and successful, I have no problem simply telling players who want to imitate this insightful, unique and often game-unbalancing* skill that they can't. "Nope, just never thought of it," I say, or "Nope, you admire it and even wish you could do it, but just don't see how," and if argument persists I simply say, "OK, you can do it if you succeed at a statistic roll using your INT on the character sheet."
There is no INT stat.

In Pendragon character generation players get one skill upgraded to 15 as standard. One of my players pointed out that the best use of this would be to raise a skill from 0 to 15 (i.e. raising a skill that is usually 0, such as axe, to 15).

In the past my players have nearly always eschewed axes, maces, etc in favor of swords and lances so it's never come up before. He does make a good point. Still it seems a bit like min-maxing to me. Is this rules legal?

As others have said, BoK&L says you cannot raise 0-point skills during character generation.

As for mini-maxing, I've given up trying to control it, except through the built-in mechanisms of the game system itself.
For new players, with their first, characters, I will emphasize it in order to help them to make a character that will have a good chance to succeed at combat
Finally, I do not feel comfortable with player characters who are always great at everything, but I increasingly enjoy the ones who have some particular quirk like a skill of 21 Mace, after subtracting the iron weapon penalty.
Also, when something is fun and quirky and successful, I have no problem simply telling players who want to imitate this insightful, unique and often game-unbalancing* skill that they can't. "Nope, just never thought of it," I say, or "Nope, you admire it and even wish you could do it, but just don't see how," and if argument persists I simply say, "OK, you can do it if you succeed at a statistic roll using your INT on the character sheet."
There is no INT stat.


So is there a way for a character from a culture that does not initially give skill axe/mace/etc. to start with the skill?

So is there a way for a character from a culture that does not initially give skill axe/mace/etc. to start with the skill?


Yes, GM fiat
If he wants to allow it, it is allowed
Make up a back story
"My family is famous for clubs and maces since they discovered they work against berserkers."

I have a similar question, inspired by another post I saw somewhere on the forum. Supposed my son has a talent that brings one of his skills from 3 to 13, and I know about it and decide to maximize this skill to the best of my ability. If I recall correctly, it says I can pick skills to get a +5 addition up to 15, at which point the addition becomes +1. His skill is at 13, and I choose to add to it, will it go all the way up to 18, or will the three points be "wasted" up to the threshold of 15 and I'll have to use other methods to bring it up?

Apply the +10 from Family Characteristic after you have allocated your other skill picks. It's possible to take a skill beyond the normal maximum of 15 via a knight's Family Characteristic.

Apply the +10 from Family Characteristic after you have allocated your other skill picks. It's possible to take a skill beyond the normal maximum of 15 via a knight's Family Characteristic.


Correct, my dear Sir Minimax!
It is, I believe, the ONLY way to do this.
Why?
Because that's what your whole family is famous for