I have a question concerning the Battle Intensity. A huge battle starts with a 30 (p14 able 1). Granted, first charge gives a bonus of -20 and line 4 on the field gives a +5. Given that the first charge was unsuccessful, the 3D6-10 could result in rout beginning on turn 2.

Can you explain the math. Two rounds of 30 triggers a rout/withdraw. Has this been addressed? Seems that the battle is a defeat before it really begins.

Calculating initial Battle Intensity is done differently in the revised BOB. As I recall from a discussion I had with someone involved in the playtest, it's now Starting Conditions + 3d6-10 Battle Events + Battle Size Score + Unit Cohesion + Battle Zone, with Battle Size Scores being rated from zero (any battle of Small or lower) to ten (Large and Huge).

You might find this helpful.

The topic cropped up before in this thread http://www.gspendragon.com/roundtable/index.php?topic=748.15. Greg gave the following rule update.




OK, I've got it now.

Here's my proposed solution.

All battles begin with Battle Intensity at 20, plus modifiers from the current Table 2, Starting Conditions

Battle Size provides a Unit Intensity modifier, which is added to all units in the battle.
This modifier represents the larger numbers, the greater urgency and desperation of so many troops in conflict, and the mutual urge for Glory on both sides.

-g


In the absense of BoB 1.1 that's how I'm currently playing it.

Can anyone confirm Undead Trout's formula? His formula is different from Greg's (20+ Starting Conditions).

By happenstance, I just asked the same question in the next thread. And when y'all say "Initial Battle Intensity" do you mean "First Charge Intensity?" Are these synonymous terms?

I'm very confused on this point and it would seem to me to be a fundamental one to get right.

Thanks,


T,

I'll merely note that the thread linked to above is fifteen months old, and the chat I had occurred six months ago in reference to new playtest developments. Makes what conclusions you will. As a long-time playtester myself, all I can say is that rules change and drafts undergo rewrites until someone cries "Enough!" and/or sets a deadline.

By happenstance, I just asked the same question in the next thread. And when y'all say "Initial Battle Intensity" do you mean "First Charge Intensity?" Are these synonymous terms?


This refers to initial Battle Intensity. First Charge Intensity is figured from that. They are not the same thing. First Charge just gives a negative modifier to UI as you go charging in.

What Sir Trout says is slightly different to what has been said before but, as he points out, the information is more up to date and the outcome makes sense.

For eg, current setup of Large Battle - Starting BI is 30 + Starting Conditions (let's say) 0 + Battle Events (let's say) 0 = 30. UI = BI + Unit Cohesion (Disengaged) -20 + Battle Zone (4) +5 = 15

Using the same setup, but assuming Battle Size now adds a modifier from 0 to 10 (let's say 10 for a Large Battle), and we assume BI starts at 20 regardless of size then: UI = BI (20) + Battle Size +10 + Starting Conditions 0 + Battle Events 0 + Unit Cohesion (Disengaged) -20 + Battle Zone (4) +5 = 15.

The only difference being that BI does not start at a level that causes rout or retreat.

You may also find this useful, from Skarpskytten



I think this was amended in some other thread here. Battle size now affects UNIT INTENSITY (if i remember correctly): thus all battles of whatever size start with a basic battle intensity of 20, and its this value that has to reach 30/40/0/10 to have the effects you enumerate in you post.


taken from this thread http://www.gspendragon.com/roundtable/index.php?topic=1243.0

Okay, now I'm really confused. I thought First Charge Intensity was Battle Intensity for the first round only. Wait, lemme walk through this:

PROPOSED REVISIONS (Example)

IN ROUND 1, First Charge Intensity = BI (20) + Battle Size +10 + Starting Conditions 0 + Battle Events 0 + Unit Cohesion (Disengaged) -20 + Battle Zone (4) +5 = 15.

IF the Army Commander wins the first Battle Roll the army gets a First Charge Bonus of +5 to Lance skill in the first round of combat that ensues.

IN ROUND 2, Battle Intensity = 15 (last round's First Charge Intensity total) + 3d6-10 Battle Events (Let's assume a 3).

UNIT INTENSITY in ROUND 2 = 18 (15 + 3) + Terrain modifiers + Battle Zone + Unit Cohesion + Battle Size (0 for Small battles or less, 10 for Large and Huge).

Is this right? Sorry to be dense, fellas, but I'm a newbie to PENDRAGON in general and the Battle System in specific. Plus I've been analyzing all the errata and proposed fixes and all this taken as a whole is an awful lot to digest. We're going to run a "test" tomorrow night so it would be helpful to have these points sorted out.

One additional question: If Small and lesser battles get a 0 mod and Large and Huge get +10, should Medium battles get +5? Split the difference?

Thanks,


T.

Okay, now I'm really confused. I thought First Charge Intensity was Battle Intensity for the first round only. Wait, lemme walk through this:


Hehe - no problem. I felt the same when I first ran a battle. The fact that it was the Battle of Lindsey, a big battle, didn't really help. However, things sound more complex than they really are.



IN ROUND 1, First Charge Intensity = BI (20) + Battle Size +10 + Starting Conditions 0 + Battle Events 0 + Unit Cohesion (Disengaged) -20 + Battle Zone (4) +5 = 15.

IF the Army Commander wins the first Battle Roll the army gets a First Charge Bonus of +5 to Lance skill in the first round of combat that ensues.


Yes. But two caveats. One, this assumes that BoB 1.1 has changed Battle Size to a mod of 0-10 and two, the army commander gets the charge bonus if he wins vs First Charge Intensity OR the enemy commander's battle skill whichever is higher.



IN ROUND 2, Battle Intensity = 15 (last round's First Charge Intensity total) + 3d6-10 Battle Events (Let's assume a 3).


No. That's not right. But, and it's a big but, we're talking about new rules here that have not yet been released. Under the old system that is wrong. You've taken the First Charge as BI and used that as your next round's starting BI when you should take BI. Remember First Charge is just a modifier for the first round it is not THE BI.

Also, you missed out a step. The actions of the PKs. Depending on the outcome of that first charge BI may be altered (eg a Triumph result gives a -2 Intensity). So assuming a Triumph your starting BI of 20 now drops to 18.

The next step I can only guess at. The Battle Events. I'm not sure if under the new system they add to BI each round or add to UI each round. Under the old they add to BI. Assuming it stays that way the rest of what you put is right.



UNIT INTENSITY in ROUND 2 = 18 (15 + 3) + Terrain modifiers + Battle Zone + Unit Cohesion + Battle Size (0 for Small battles or less, 10 for Large and Huge).


As your original numbers were wrong these numbers are wrong too. But the steps you've taken are spot on. Again though, remember I cannot say for sure where battle events are now added, to BI or UI. At a guess I would say they still add to BI because these events simulate what is happening everywhere else in the battle. They cause the BI to fluctuate a little bit up and down as time goes by.

Yes. But two caveats. One, this assumes that BoB 1.1 has changed Battle Size to a mod of 0-10...

Yep, I'm with ya. I am assuming these proposed tweak in this forum, even though they haven't been officially published as of yet. I'm still unclear as to whether the Battle Size modifier should be applied to Battle Intensity or Unit Intensity. I thought it was Unit Intensity so that the PK wouldn't be on the verge of a rout from the jump...


....and two, the army commander gets the charge bonus if he wins vs First Charge Intensity OR the enemy commander's battle skill whichever is higher..

Yes, I get that.


No. That's not right. But, and it's a big but, we're talking about new rules here that have not yet been released. Under the old system that is wrong. You've taken the First Charge as BI and used that as your next round's starting BI when you should take BI. Remember First Charge is just a modifier for the first round it is not THE BI.

Okay this is the crux of my confusion right here. I think the BoB is a little ambiguous on this point. The very first formula I see on page 13 is for determining "First Charge Intensity" (in the callout)—it is a formula in it's own right, not a modifier. Then, on page 14, I read "The sum of these numbers is the Battle Intensity," under the subhead of "Battle Intensity for this Round." It seems to me like these labels are being used interchangeably for the first round...


Also, you missed out a step. The actions of the PKs. Depending on the outcome of that first charge BI may be altered (eg a Triumph result gives a -2 Intensity). So assuming a Triumph your starting BI of 20 now drops to 18.

Ah, yes. Quite right. Thank you.


The next step I can only guess at. The Battle Events. I'm not sure if under the new system they add to BI each round or add to UI each round. Under the old they add to BI. Assuming it stays that way the rest of what you put is right.

Yes, I must've missed the part of the discussion about Battle Events. I have heard that Battle SIZE would be used to modify Unit Intensity, not that Battle EVENTS would be used to modify anything other than Battle Intensity.


As your original numbers were wrong these numbers are wrong too. But the steps you've taken are spot on. Again though, remember I cannot say for sure where battle events are now added, to BI or UI. At a guess I would say they still add to BI because these events simulate what is happening everywhere else in the battle. They cause the BI to fluctuate a little bit up and down as time goes by.


Yes, as I understand it, the only thing that's being swapped like this is that Battle Size would modify Unit Intensity, not Battle Intensity. Greg seems to accede to that point in this thread:

http://www.gspendragon.com/roundtable/index.php?topic=748.0

Thanks for your patience!


T.

Okay, I'm going to give this another shot, because I'm not convinced I have it quite right. This is how I understand the NEW rules are supposed to work (pieced together from various threads here and lacking the official BoB 1.1)

A. FIRST CHARGE

1. OPENING Battle Intensity = 20 (The new "default" value)

2. FIRST CHARGE Unit Intensity = Open Battle Intensity (20) + Battle Size (0 for ≤ Small, 10 for ≥Large Battles) + Starting Conditions + Unit Cohesion + Battle Zone + Terrain (Optional)

3. FINAL Battle Intensity = OPENING Battle Intensity (20) + Unit Result

B. ROUND 2

1. Battle Intensity = FINAL Battle Intensity of First Charge + Battle Events

2. Unit Intensity = Battle Intensity + Battle Size (0 for ≤ Small, 10 for ≥Large Battles) + Starting Conditions + Unit Cohesion + Battle Zone + Terrain (Optional)

3. FINAL Battle Intensity = Battle Intensity (see B.1) + Unit Results

Rinse and repeat.

Is this right? After our first test this weekend, I'm still not sure about this part. I think I have my head fairly around everything else. We missed a bunch of stuff, but at least I think we understand the basics of the system—except for this fundamental piece!

Thanks again,


T.

Personally I think Battle Events should apply to BI not UI. That 3d6-10 roll simulates what is going on everywhere else in the battle and ensures a minor, unpredictable fluctuation to BI. Otherwise only the PKs can change BI and, even though they are the main focus, that doesn't feel right to me.

Greg may not agree though :)

Don't worry too much about missing stuff during your first battle. You learn more each time and soon get to grips with it all.

Oops. No, I think you're right. Not sure why I posted it like that. Let me amend it.

Thanks!


T.