Well...that went rather poorly.

So we tee up our very first "real" battle after having practiced 4-5 bouts. Everything went swimmingly when figuring the First Charge Intensity.

We started with the (rumored new rule) default opening Battle Intensity of 20. I gave a -5 for homeland being invaded (this was not mentioned in GPC, but I thought it was appropriate), and -5 for superior troops (per GPC). Then we rolled Battle Events and I got a -4! Adjusting for +5 Battle Zone and -20 Unit Cohesion yielded at First Charge Intensity of -9. Uther made the First Charge bonus, rolling against AElle's Battle skill, but the Lance bonus was cancelled when the PK rolled Veteran Spearmen (Great Spears) on the enemies table. It very quickly went down hill from there.

We went straight to combat since it was First Charge. Now, mind you, I'm playing a 1:1 Campaign with my wife as the lone PK. She had two "buddy knights". So she rolled for Passion for all of them. Her PK, Sir Bran, FUMBLED with a 20 and the other two failed as well. At this point they were at -5 to all skills (disheartened) but +5 for mounted vs afoot. I decided to worry about the madness after the battle. She failed her Lance roll, and her Saxon foe CRITTED with a natural 20! Holy crap! Bran was unhorsed, with a Major Wound to boot. He managed to stay conscious and even made the Valorous roll with a -5 mod (should it have been -10 for the Major Wound)? So, I ruled he was able to get on his horse and retreat in the extended combat round. I missed the "Rescue a Friend" rules because he's only 1 PK and all.

To continue with the account: Buddy Knight #1 lost his round but only took 6 its since his Saxon foe rolled a normal success. Buddy Knight #2's foe ALSO CRITTED! Howls of pain! He was unhorsed, knocked unconscious, and reduced to -1 HP.

All the squires made their rolls, so Buddy Knight #2's squire was actually able to retrieve his master's body and, thanks to his Love (Buddy Knight) Passion, evade the Flashy Warriors that stood in his way in a heroic rescue.

Back at the camp, Bran and Buddy Knight #1 tried exchanging First Aid. They both failed. Then I rolled for Healing and Chirurgery skill (in-camp talent), got a 14 and 11, respectively. The First Aid failed, so no help for poor Bran. Then the Chirurgist FUMBLED! Gave Bran another 4 points of damage and another 2 for deterioration on Sunday, leaving him with just 2 points. Jesu Christ!

Neither healing, nor chirurgery were able to save Buddy Knight #2, who passed that night.

So I gave Bran 7 glory for the charge against the Veteran Spearmen, and then another 150 because GPC lists 30 per round, and states the battle was 5 rounds. Was I right to do so? He survived the battle after all, and an indecisive victory is supposed to bring 1x the stated Glory award. I figured it was the least I could do.

So, here's another question: what do I do when my PK is knocked out of the action, as are the buddy knights? Should I continue to fill in slots with "stock" buddies so I can maintain the three knight minimum needed to determine the outcome of the battle? In this case, where there's only 1 PK, how can I proceed with the battle when he's knocked out of the action? Luckily, the outcome of Mearcred Creek was scripted in GPC, so I just said the battle raged for 5 hours with no clear winner.

We rolled for lost ATT due to Bran's Major Wound and he got a reduction to APP. And now, of course, he's maddened. He happened to be carrying his family heirloom, a blessed lance. Perhaps I'll rule he lost it too in the charge, hence the madness. Of course, he can't really get very far on just 2 HP, so I think the madness is going to have to be part of his convalescence story. Maybe he shuts himself in a tower and won't be seen by anyone save his squire for the next year. Course, that's gonna make for a poor Winter Phase...

Helluva way to kick-off a campaign. Now I gotta figure out how to make some lemonade from this very sour harvest. I think I did everything "right" except for missing the rescue of Bran, but I don't know how I coulda made that work—use the Buddy Knight #1 to attempt the rescue? Hell, since their unit was disordered from the "Crush" result, I doubt the guy could had pulled out the rescue even if I'd thought of it.

One bright side: On the way from Castle Vagon to be knighted, Bran and his buddies encountered the faerie Needy Boy, from GPC pg 401 and was Generous. Maybe this faerie can cure him of his madness and maybe even some additional supernatural compensation since this went so horribly wrong.


T.


UPDATE: Now that I review this more carefully, it looks like I screwed up the Saxon's crit on the first charge. They have a 22 and so I added 2 to my roll, which was an 18—a CRIT (20), right? Wrong. I forgot to subtract the -5 reflex mod for afoot vs. mounted. This would have made the skill a 17 and the 18 a FAILURE. Dammit. What would you guys do in this case? A "do over", since I made a clear mistake? Or should I just roll with it and chalk it up to a story telling challenge. I kinda don't like do-overs because these rules systems are so complex, it's very easy to do something like this. You'd be constantly redoing stuff. On the other hand, I could start the next session with Bran waking from a nightmare on the morning of the Battle of Mearcred Creek...give him another chance.

I think you've hit the nail square on the head: Sir Bran should wake in a cold sweat on the morning of battle, from a nightmare of frightening depth and detail in which his companion died and he himself went mad. Then explain to your wife that you goofed on several points and thought it would be more fun to replay the battle. Problem solved.

Oh, and Chirurgery rolls are made weekly when a character is unhealthy (the side-effect of sustaining a Major Wound, being taken below one's Unconscious, being poisoned, and so on), and either impede or improve natural healing (you heal points equal to Healing Rate each week, at sunrise on Sunday). Immediate treatment of a wound is via First Aid alone.

Oh, and Chirurgery rolls are made weekly when a character is unhealthy (the side-effect of sustaining a Major Wound, being taken below one's Unconscious, being poisoned, and so on), and either impede or improve natural healing (you heal points equal to Healing Rate each week, at sunrise on Sunday). Immediate treatment of a wound is via First Aid alone.


Yes, I should've mentioned that I was accounting for that in my head. Thank you.

I'm interested in how people handle do-overs in general. If you can point to a clear error in the process, do people generally re-do stuff on the spot, or hand wave it and just weave it into the narrative?

Also, if anyone could shed any light on what to do when your unit is basically wiped out in a battle—how do you continue to resolve the outcome of the battle with no PKs in the action?

Thanks,


T.

Sounds like the Fates were definitely against your player(s).

On the subject of rectifying mistakes made I house rule that once a session is over that's it. Any errors remain for good or ill. This usually means that if *I* make a mistake, especially about something that lets the PKs off the hook somehow, they keep quiet about it. If they make a mistake it's almost always noticed within 5 seconds and called out.

KAP is deadly enough so I just assume any let offs to be a twist of fate in the PKs favour. It happens too infrequently for me to lose sleep over. As your wife may not be super savvy with the rules just yet you may want to make an exception this time. You're the GM, do what you feel is best for your campaign.

Thanks, SP. Yeah, my wife is not a rules lawyer by any stretch and will never be. I can get her to read the flavor stuff in the rulebooks, but that's about it. She starts to glaze over with game mechanics (except those which she learns by doing and repetition, like normal combat, etc.). With no other players it's pretty much up to to me to learn the system. So there are plenty of opportunities to "miss stuff", especially when earning my wings with a new game. I really hate do-overs because it provides a sort of backdoor that undermines the fear and tension that one wants to cultivate as a GM. But, I guess every once in a great while it comes necessary. Still, I can see creative ways I could just move on even with this outcome, so I'm a little conflicted about it.


T.

I really hate do-overs because it provides a sort of backdoor that undermines the fear and tension that one wants to cultivate as a GM. But, I guess every once in a great while it comes necessary. Still, I can see creative ways I could just move on even with this outcome, so I'm a little conflicted about it.

Your internal conflict is because you care--a good trait for a GM.
I hate do-overs, too.
I can't just bullshit my way through anymore, so the next adventure the apparent mess is explained by what happened elsewhere, what was just a feverous dream, and so on.
As for an earlier question:
When all the PCs are out of play, all play is finished. End it like you did. Narrate it quickly, go to End of Battle

Thanks, Greg. Since you've forgotten more about game mastering that likely ever to know, I'm very curious as to your advice in tis instance. We agree that do-overs are undesirable, and certainly not something that should be commonplace, but in a disaster like this that's of my own making because I missed a key modifier, what do you think? What would Greg do is what I'm asking.

To just focus on a couple of additional points. made in my original post:

1.) Are there no penalties for rolls after a Major Wound? So Bran make remains conscious AND makes his Valorous roll, So he can carry on as normal with no negs for being so badly hurt? I don't find a ready answer to this in the rulebook, but perhaps I'm missing it.

2.) Was I correct in awarding the Glory award for this battle as posted in GPC (5 rounds at 30 points of Glory each) even though Bran got creamed in the First Charge? I figured he was there, charged courageously and lived to tell the tale, so he should get the standard award as published, plus the 14 he earned in the First Charge. I figured it was the least I could do for having my lone PK nearly die in his first outing...

Thanks,


T.

1.) Are there no penalties for rolls after a Major Wound?There are no penalties to rolls, but I would rule that succeeding at valorous once isn't enough to permit a knight to carry on regardless. Once the immediate situation that spurred him to action has resolved itself, then another situation would require a subsequent valorous roll or the knight shrinks from the challenge.



2.) Was I correct in awarding the Glory award for this battle as posted in GPC (5 rounds at 30 points of Glory each) even though Bran got creamed in the First Charge?Nope. That's the glory you get for participating in the battle - if Sir Bran spent the four rounds after the initial clash in the camp, then he wasn't participating in the battle so he doesn't get the glory for those rounds.

Regards
Luke

Okay, so we tried a do-over. Short of it is, Bran still ended up with only 2 HPs, Battle Buddy #1 was killed instead of #2, and Bran lost 1 pt of App, exactly like before. Sigh.

This time I forgot to apply the automatic actions for low Battle Intensity. At the start of Round 2, we already had a BI of only 4. Using the revised Automatic Action rules, they should have been beating a retreat at the end of round 3, when the BI was still only an 8.

Some new questions arose. I will post them in separate threads.


Thanks,

T.

Thanks, Greg. Since you've forgotten more about game mastering that likely ever to know, I'm very curious as to your advice in tis instance. We agree that do-overs are undesirable, and certainly not something that should be commonplace, but in a disaster like this that's of my own making because I missed a key modifier, what do you think? What would Greg do is what I'm asking.


To just focus on a couple of additional points. made in my original post:
1.) Are there no penalties for rolls after a Major Wound? So Bran make remains conscious AND makes his Valorous roll, So he can carry on as normal with no negs for being so badly hurt? I don't find a ready answer to this in the rulebook, but perhaps I'm missing it.

The normal penalty for action after a Major Wound is that the character dies.
The MW is in KAP to allow a badly wounded character to survive, which rarely occurs after they are reduced to 1/4 total HP


2.) Was I correct in awarding the Glory award for this battle as posted in GPC (5 rounds at 30 points of Glory each) even though Bran got creamed in the First Charge? I figured he was there, charged courageously and lived to tell the tale, so he should get the standard award as published, plus the 14 he earned in the First Charge. I figured it was the least I could do for having my lone PK nearly die in his first outing...

No.
See page 49, right column, bottom
He gains full Glory for the rounds which he was active
The rounds he was unconscious, etc.; grant the Inactive/Wounded Glory

Also, if anyone could shed any light on what to do when your unit is basically wiped out in a battle—how do you continue to resolve the outcome of the battle with no PKs in the action?If it's a scripted battle, then follow the script.

If it was an unscripted battle (and I truly had made no provision in my mind as to who would win beforehand) then I would probably rule the outcome as indecisive.

Regards
Luke

Okay, so we tried a do-over. Short of it is, Bran still ended up with only 2 HPs, Battle Buddy #1 was killed instead of #2, and Bran lost 1 pt of App, exactly like before. Sigh.Similarly bad dice luck as the first time? Or did the knights get reamed by a less unbalanced series of dice rolls this time around?


This time I forgot to apply the automatic actions for low Battle Intensity.How did you get BI down to low single figures by round 2? This sounds like you were doing something wrong to me.

Regards
Luke

Similarly bad dice luck as the first time? Or did the knights get reamed by a less unbalanced series of dice rolls this time around?

Not not quite so bad as before, but bad enough!


How did you get BI down to low single figures by round 2? This sounds like you were doing something wrong to me.

You may be right about that. Here's what I did (mind you I'm using the as-yet unpublished rule tweaks that are found throughout various threads in this forum);

FIRST CHARGE: Default Battle Intensity 20 + Starting Conditions: -5 Defending Homeland and -5 Better troops on Uther's side, Battle Events: -2 = Opening Battle Intensity: 8 + Terrain: 0 + Battle Zone: 5 + Unit Cohesion: -20 = First Charge Intensity of -7. (As I understand it in the "new" rules there is no Battle Size modifier for a Medium Battle, and at any rate it gets applied to the Unit Intensity so that modifier plays no role in this Battle). Uther's won the First Charge Bonus and Elad's Unit was charging Warriors Frothing with Hate. Brand got his Passion, but his Buddy Knight's didn't try this time. The Saxons DID get their Passion bonus. The victory result was -1 after a Loss. One of the Battle Buddies received a crit from the Frothing Warriors—delivered a Mortal Wound, with exactly is hit points. Those bastards with the Great Spears are tough!

ROUND 2: Last Round Intensity: 7. Battle Event: -3. Battle Intensity 4. + Battle Zone +10 = Unit Intensity 14. Elad didn't make win the Unit Roll, and the Saxons critted, so Elad had to Stand Fast and be attacked by TWO Screaming Warrior units. He ended up with a Loss, had to Recoil 1 and was Disordered. Sonofa...

So, by my reading of the errata that Greg's posted for the Automatic Actions (When Army Intensity is 10 or less at the start of two consecutive rounds, the enemy army signals a general retreat at the start of the second round. Enemy unit maneuver is Withdraw, Player units may Follow.) The Saxons should have started a general retreat in this round. Is that right? (Because in Round 1 the BI was 8 and in Round 2 it was 7).

ROUND 3: Unfortunately, I did not have these errata handy, so Elad next tried a Withdraw in next, going for another charge. He lost this roll as well, and the Howling Warriors won again — Bran got a Partial Success and took 9 HP and one of the Buddy Knights fumbled. Still the Final Battle Intensity was an 8.

ROUND 4: I realized my mistake with not having the Saxons retreat so I decided to do it now. Elad's Unit decided to Pursue, instead of charge in Round 4. They had to fight 2 foes at 1/2 strength. They rolled poorly and Brand took 16 points and a major wound from the Badder Berserkers who do 8d6 (8d6! Seriously?) with the "Great Weapon".

This reminds me of another question: Are those Berserker "Great Weapons" great enough to nullify the First Charge Bonus, as per "Great Spear"? I rolled them in the First Charge, but didn't know the answer to this, so I rolled again until I got something other than a Saxon with a "Great Weapon".

So Bran's at 2HP, Knocked down, and unconscious. His Squire tries to roll Passion and fails. Then First Aid and fails. Brand is left with 2 HP as the Saxons retreat. We roll for ATT modifier and she rolls APP again. Startlingly, we have an exact repeat of the previous "nightmare" bout! Only Buddy Knight #1 died instead of Buddy Knight #2.

So I think I did everything right, except for sounding a general retreat for the Saxons in Round 2. But I could try well be wrong, and am eager to know if I am.

My wife: "Y'know, I know this is supposed to be a gritty game and everything, but, damn, it's no fun if you get your ass handed to you EVERY TIME".

Me: "Well, we have yet to play it "correctly" even once. We make major errors every time."

Thank you all for your continued patience as I try to master this. Getting a little frustrated by the complexity. Don't know how you guys remember all this stuff—or play often enough to remember all of the details. I guess it helps when you have 3-4 people around the table who are pitching in. Gonna have to make a process sheet for this, I guess. I downloaded one from somewhere, but I can see ways to add value to it, for me at least.

Oh—one other question: GPC does not list a "defending homeland" modifier for this battle, but it seems appropriate to me, so I granted it in the First Charge. If this is not an appropriate scenario for this modifier, what is?

Best,


T.

This reminds me of another question: Are those Berserker "Great Weapons" great enough to nullify the First Charge Bonus, as per "Great Spear"? I rolled them in the First Charge, but didn't know the answer to this, so I rolled again until I got something other than a Saxon with a "Great Weapon".


Since I didn't see this answered elsewhere... I should preface this that I am going without the Book of Battles, so this is more what I have assumed myself.

The iconic Berserker Weapon is the Great Axe (two-handed axe). So that is what I generally have them using, and the damage calculation goes like 6d6 (Saxons are big and strong) + 1d6 (Wotanist Religion bonus) + 1d6 (Great Weapon) = 8d6. And just to make them more scary, the shield protects only at 1d6 against Axes, I think is the rule. But on the other hand, they do not negate the First Charge bonus, nor the mounted vs. footman bonus. So I think it is safe to say that you'd much rather deal with these people with your Lance, than be stuck in the middle swinging your sword!

Hope that helped!

Thanks, again, Morien! I guess I was thinking in terms of the Danish Battle Axe, which was single-headed and had a haft about 4 ft long. These weapons were said to be able to bring down a rider and horse in a single blow. But, you're right—I suppose on closer reflection that the reach still would be no match for a lance—even though the lance has to clear the neck and shoulders of the rider's horse. But I remembered that these axes were used at Hastings and were effective until the Saxons unwisely broke ranks (twice as I recall) and followed "routing" Normans thereby losing there unit cohesiveness!

T.

I seem to recall reading that the Norman knights in the time of Hastings were still using overarm stabby spears rather than couched lances. This might explain in part why those Dane axes were so effective. The other issue is that the Saxons were in a shield wall. Horses do not tend to charge against a solid(-looking) object, because they know that would hurt. So the Norman knights ended up riding to the front of the shield wall and stabbing with their spears, which of course brings them within the reach of the axes at relatively low speeds... CHOP. No more horse. Totally a different ball game when you have disorganized infantry running down and getting charged from multiple directions.