hi knightheads,

I just did my first read through 'By The Sword' by Richard Cohen. One thing that I noticed, at least when talking about fencing, is that swords break! And it's dangerous, as in people get killed. I need to do a read through again and pay attention better as to when breaking swords become an issue.

The read through has made me wonder if our unbreakable swords really should not be breakable. What do people think about this?

A different issue that I gleamed, was: should our swords become duller in combat? That came up in the book too.

ArmerdBear

KAP strives for neither historical accuracy nor realism. Literary authenticity has ever been its banner, its clarion call. Model the medieval romances. Swords break when dramatically appropriate. If they dull, one's squire sharpens them between scenes.

You don't think that any history or sense of reality informs the game? I can see the literary stuff, my copy says something about us writing our own king arthur tale.

I'm going to have to dig outside of Pdragon so I can get some idea if swords did bust. If I was to add sword breaking to the game I'm not sure how I'd handle it. Everything else breaks. Maybe if the opponent wasn't using a shield and parried I'd let the broken sword do some damage.

Maybe I'd have the knights sword break at a important moment if he was acting dishonerable. By The Sword mentioned something about people having their swords busted if they were in disgrace. Or something like that. :P

ArmerdBear

You don't think that any history or sense of reality informs the game?

It does, but keep in mind that the authors of the medieval romances knew a hell of a lot more about their time than we do. Swords do break in reality, and go dull, but that's only important in the romances when it reveals something about the characters or situations.

Swords not breaking is their USP in the game.

The design intent is to provide characters with a tangible mechanical advantage for wielding the standard knightly weapon.

Regards
Luke

If you really want them to break, houserule it, or use the rule from the GPC (when you roll a fumble and the opponent rolls a crit, your sword does break). Add some rules for shields getting hacked to pieces, while you’re at it; this does occur quite often in Malory.

However, if the sword’s unique advantage gets removed completely, the rational choice for players is to use a different weapon, probably the axe with its sweet special rule.

Fencing swords do indeed break, but please remember that they are far thinner than are swords meant to cut through armor. They are designed for lightness, speed, and use against unarmored foes in duels or in town, not for battlefield combat the way Pendragon swords are.

For a mental image, picture a fencing-era sword's blade at half an inch wide, while a Pendragon style sword blade at about two inches wide with thicker proportions. Yes, there are huge variations, taper issues, etc., but still it's like comparing the robustness of a racecar vs. a pickup truck.

I would not worry about a Pendragon sword blade breaking in normal use. The edge getting chipped/dulled, damage from abuse, certainly, but not snapping in two as a result of normal combat.

As for dulling, I assume that it's part of normal wear and tear. Re-sharpen when possible, replace when necessary. Anyone with sense will check their sword, armor, etc. regularly, and certainly after every battle. It's part of a squire's normal job. Not an issue unless you're constantly fighting out in the woods (say, adventuring) without access to supply or replacement parts for months or years at a time ....

Combining this with the critical hits/maiming topic, perhaps it would be interesting to allow knights (PKs and maybe prominent NPCs?) to turn a critical hit into a regular hit in exchange for some extremely unfavorable situation. Perhaps allowing a knight to have his sword break and take a normal hit to negate a critical hit?

There is no need to have a sword break unless it is dramatically appropriate to do so. i NEVER remember a knoght im malory's stories breaking his blade unless it was to enhance the plot. :) if u let it break u are taking away the only advantage that the sword has in Pendragon

If you really want them to break, houserule it, or use the rule from the GPC (when you roll a fumble and the opponent rolls a crit, your sword does break). Add some rules for shields getting hacked to pieces, while you’re at it; this does occur quite often in Malory.

However, if the sword’s unique advantage gets removed completely, the rational choice for players is to use a different weapon, probably the axe with its sweet special rule.


I need to get the GPC! That sounds like a system that may be good to have: swords break, but rarely.

ArmerdBear

Fencing swords do indeed break, but please remember that they are far thinner than are swords meant to cut through armor. They are designed for lightness, speed, and use against unarmored foes in duels or in town, not for battlefield combat the way Pendragon swords are.

For a mental image, picture a fencing-era sword's blade at half an inch wide, while a Pendragon style sword blade at about two inches wide with thicker proportions. Yes, there are huge variations, taper issues, etc., but still it's like comparing the robustness of a racecar vs. a pickup truck.

I would not worry about a Pendragon sword blade breaking in normal use. The edge getting chipped/dulled, damage from abuse, certainly, but not snapping in two as a result of normal combat.

As for dulling, I assume that it's part of normal wear and tear. Re-sharpen when possible, replace when necessary. Anyone with sense will check their sword, armor, etc. regularly, and certainly after every battle. It's part of a squire's normal job. Not an issue unless you're constantly fighting out in the woods (say, adventuring) without access to supply or replacement parts for months or years at a time ....


the dulling of the sword may just add an unnecessary complication to the game. What to say, your sword gets 6 hits and needs to be resharpened after 6. What then? How much damage to subtract? Maybe a six sided dice roll. And if swords go dull, what about other weapons. I suppose that they break... errr... .

ArmerdBear

the dulling of the sword may just add an unnecessary complication to the game. What to say, your sword gets 6 hits and needs to be resharpened after 6. What then? How much damage to subtract? Maybe a six sided dice roll. And if swords go dull, what about other weapons. I suppose that they break... errr... .


I agree -- having fixed rules for dulling swords in normal situations is an unnecessary complication.

I do it by "flavor text". Each night before they can sleep squires must check his knight's sword, remove rust/replace leather straps/etc. from his knight's armor, etc. Energetic and Prudent knights always double-check their squire's work before sleeping themselves. Players get introduced to this during their "squire time" before knighting. Paying for replacement blades, mail rings, shields, etc. is just part of normal maintenance, happens automatically without hard game effect, and the equipment needed is part of the war load taken on campaign.

Deviations from automatic only enter with abnormal situations. Squireless knights have to choose between taking time out to maintain their equipment or slowly looking like a Poor or Impoverished knight. Knights on adventure/campaign without access to maintenance suffer the same appearance decline (something to keep in mind when the Saxons are closing in on your camp in Battle). Knights with a special sword who use it for practice bouts, lesser tourneys, etc. will "eventually" (GM decision) have to replace it -- do they Prudently want to save it for special occasions, the way they save their court clothes for court? Knights with the wealth to buy plate armor in a period when most folks have mail are warned that the average armorer will not know how to hammer out the dents and keep the sliding rivets, etc. working -- do they still want to buy it?

And of course it can make for a touching scene when the knight hands his old "a little chewed up but still good, it served me well" sword to his new squire, promising relative, encountered youngster with great potential, etc.

I need to get the GPC! That sounds like a system that may be good to have: swords break, but rarely.


Oh yes, the GPC is very nice to have, even though I don’t use the actual campaign that much. One thing I really like is the extended harvest resolution (basically, two tables for economic circumstances and a resolution matrix); this makes the winter phase a bit more interesting without pulling all the stops like the BotM.

The sword breaking rule is another instance of the golden middle, in my opinion. The GPC only has a few pages of actual rules, but those make me wish they had been part of the core rulebook all along.