Hello, another newly joined member here. We're slowly returning back to KAP after a longish break, and I have purchased some of the new books like BoB and GPC to update our rules which are still in the 3rd edition (actually one of my players has the 4th edition too).

So after that introduction to my real question. We had our first small battle yesterday using the Uther period army list, and noticed that those urban Roman intantry are deadly! We also pondered about how they actually work. This probably is explained in the book someplace, but as there is quite a lot to take in at one go, can I just ask how do you use them in combat? I mean, they have javelins and gladiuses etc, so are we correct to assume they would use the missile weapon and the melee weapon both in the same round, having in effect two attacks? Or is it one or the other (but this wouldn't seem somehow right, considering roman tactics?) And if they get to both throw they javelins and attack in melee on the same round, how do you figure the win/loss results, do you count them separately, thus ending with double the amount of results?

Also, their damage with gladius seems really high. Does the Scutum add to damage that much, or are they just so strong and big? It was a bit of a disaster to encounter them several times in the battle, especially as one round also had PKs fighting against another troop. On the other hand, the knights also got to encounter the rustic spearmen several times, and ended up decimating those poor buggers. :P

We had good fun with the battle which took 9 rounds and ended as indecisive. In real time it took us the whole game session, but as the players had always something to do, they didn't get bored or anything. Only one player suffered a major wound and was hauled back to the camp to receive some first aid/chirurgery. So all in all the game was a success even if I struggled a bit with the rules. But it's a huge improvement on the 3rd edition battle rules, especially in turns of variety and tactics etc. Great system!

I've always assumed some of the unit stats to be a reflection on the combat effectiveness of the unit as a whole and not the individual men within it. Thus with their training, discipline and tactics, Romans do indeed make a deadly fighting force.

I rule the javelins to be a bonus attack made just before the units clash and not part of the usual results resolution.

Per the Book of Battle the Roman Urban Infantery is a missile unit so will normally attack with missile fire. However, if engaged, will stand and fight rather than run away like most othe missile units do. I guess the reason they look so deadly is because they're entrenched or in a good position.

Good points about tactics and discipline Sir Pramalot, I hadn't considered it that way. I was thinking more in terms of pure equipment.

What little I know of Roman tactics, it would seem that they should indeed be able to use the javelins before melee? Didn't they throw them just before engaging in melee? And considering you can't throw that pilum too far (I think?) anyways, it seems to me that they should behave somewhat differently from regular missile troops which can shoot from other ranks even if they weren't directly engaged? On the other hand, if I do it like Earl DlW suggests, ie. treat is as regular missile troop, then it would seem to make them less useful, and seems somehow 'wrong' (I have difficulty imaging your ranked legionnaires with big shields as missile troops, they had other units for that?) I don't see them as support troops but as the core of the enemy infantry in that table?

Pramalot, how do you handle the PKs' reaction to the javelin attack, can they ignore/defend (combat) against them? And do you count any hits into the melee results? We did it that way in the battle, and it made the legionnaire a very tough opponent. They have high weapon skills compared with my beginner PKs, so dividing the PKs combat skill to fight both missile and melee attacks didn't really help, they were in trouble no matter what they chose. Ignoring the javelins only gave easy wins to the legionnaires (ie. losses to the PKs), even if they rarely wounded them. They were more of an annoyance in this sense, except perhaps if they hit your horse. Then comes the gladius attack which really tore them into pieces. On the other hand, making them into missile troops (as the arrow mark suggests) would tone down this a lot, but they'd still have that option to go melee if needed.

Both the Book of Battle and the Book of Armies have different categories for Missle troops. There are sprinters that run away if attacked. There are troops that can carry out Double attacks and there are 'normal' missle troops.

I have to say, that I like the sprinting units and the double attack units. However, standard missile units leave me cold, as they pose little threat to knights (3D6 damage) and will probably use melee weapons if attacked.

They are better when the unit is double attacked and they come under missle fire just before they engage another unit.

The Infantry (Urban Roman) in the Uther Army on page 67 of BoB looks to me on hindsight like it should be designated as a 'D' for Double attack rarher than as a missle unit. Perhaps this is an item for the errata.

An interesting point and one which I don't know the definitive answer to. I had the legionnaires throw javelins before engaging, but, as Earl points out, they are really just missile troops. However, some legionaries are marked with the D symbol and do attack in the way I described. In such cases, I don't include the missile attack as part of the result, I just treat it as a bonus attack. That may well be wrong. Doing it your way - and including the attacks as part of the result resolution - makes them tough *as nails*.

If the PKs defend the attack and get their shields in the way, the javelins bend and reduce their effectiveness, giving a minus mod to weapon skill. If they ignore then they are likely to take a wound before engaging.

I've played about ten battles with BoB, including several sieges and I like it a lot. You *will* encounter situations which aren't quite covered by the rules, or require an on the spot decision about how best to proceed but just apply some common sense and you should be fine. My first few battles were all over the place rule wise, but the important thing was that no one noticed; the PKs enjoyed themselves. Afterwards, I re-read the rules and with the extra bit of play experience I was able to understand them a whole lot better. And, when all else fails, there is always the forum to help and advise.

I have to say, that I like the sprinting units and the double attack units. However, standard missile units leave me cold, as they pose little threat to knights (3D6 damage) and will probably use melee weapons if attacked.


I quite like long range missile units. That 3D6 is not likely to bother a knight much, but it does a good job of bringing down horses and forcing Horsemanship rolls.



The Infantry (Urban Roman) in the Uther Army on page 67 of BoB looks to me on hindsight like it should be designated as a 'D' for Double attack rarher than as a missle unit. Perhaps this is an item for the errata.


I agree. This does seem odd. Assuming it is not an error, I can only guess it's to differentiate between lower class soldiers and elites.

I agree. This does seem odd. Assuming it is not an error, I can only guess it's to differentiate between lower class soldiers and elites.


Please go combing through the rules, because there are a lot of interesting units
but do not assume little differences are errors
the Urban Roman infantry (page 67, #09 opponent) are not the Roman Legionaries, but a pale shadow of them without the discipline to get a D.
It is an Uther Period army--think of the old Roman cities there, empty shells, no more Trade, no legions
Just these guys,
and knightly esquires

To ask about specific units, please have a new thread for each one, & use page number & Opponent #, as above.

-g

So Greg, can you comment on the correct way of using these urban infantry, please? Only one attack (missile or melee), or two attacks (missile and melee) per round? And do the javelin attacks count as wins (if they hit and are not ignored?)

So Greg, can you comment on the correct way of using these urban infantry, please? Only one attack (missile or melee), or two attacks (missile and melee) per round? And do the javelin attacks count as wins (if they hit and are not ignored?)





but a pale shadow of them without the discipline to get a D.


-g



He did, they only get one attack. Also, if an attack hits, then it is a win.

Sorry, so he did. For some reason that didn't register in my brain. ???