When we went through the character creation process, we ended up with something that I think is a little odd:

My wife decided to make her knight 26 years old. Further rolling revealed that he had an uncle, 3 younger brothers, and two cousins—knights all. Now that I'm more familiar with the milieu I've got some questions about the implications of all this for the feudal order. Here's a guy that elected to remain a squire until he was old by squire standards BUT he's heir to the family fortune and property. There's much made about how expensive it is to be a knight, so I find it challenging to come up with a rationale as to how/why his three younger brothers became knights while he is not—just from the financial aspect alone. Also, wouldn't these younger brothers already have obligations to another knight (likely as household knights, I imagine)? If that's true then how/why would they leave the service of their current liege to rejoin the family, the PK's "army"? Also, is it assumed that our newly minted knight is returning to his HOME manor—after being away for years as a page and squire? So he might well have established relationships with the stable master, etc, yeah? And what of the older uncle. If he's a knight already, isn't he also in service to someone? What incentive does he have to leave his life and take become his nephews seneschal, or whatever? Is this even possible?

I'm trying to reconcile what I rolled in the family history with the dynamics of the feudal system, which I don't want to fly in the face of. I can see similar questions with just about any character when rolling a family background, regardless of starting age. Why do these brothers, cousins, and uncles flock to the PK's banner all of a sudden and what becomes of their lives up to now, their feudal obligations?

All thoughts are welcome.


Best,


T.

As for your wife's knight's age, he wouldn't remain a squire until the age of 26 unless his Father's Class was Esquire. If he's the son of a knight, at age 26 chances are he's a knight with five years' previous experience. This of course presumes you're using KAP 5e, which no longer has requirements for knighthood.

A knight's duties do not take all day, every day. If his kin live in the same homeland, they're a few days' ride away at most. In a neighboring homeland, maybe twice that. In the same region, a week at most. There's a table in BOKL that gives you several possible reasons for the knighting of a younger sibling.

I think it says (either in the core rules or BoKL) that if you roll younger brothers up as knights when the eldest are not knights, to simply assume that the younger brothers are current squires who will become knights in due time.

I had a player who did the same thing, choosing to start the game at 26.

He chose to be the "Spare" child, as in...
Heir, Spare, Prayer, Why.

I simply killed off Dad and Heir at Mt Damon!
With both Dad and Older brother dead, the PC found himself having to stop being primarily a Steward (esquire) and now become a full Knight.

MrUkpyr
Et honorem servicium

As for your wife's knight's age, he wouldn't remain a squire until the age of 26 unless his Father's Class was Esquire. If he's the son of a knight, at age 26 chances are he's a knight with five years' previous experience. This of course presumes you're using KAP 5e, which no longer has requirements for knighthood.

Revisiting this now, I'm not seeing that in KAP 5.1. There, on page 30, it says the starting age of your character is 21, but you can take up to my five more years, so, you can start at up to age 26. The book says repeatedly that you are a squire at the beginning of the campaign. Have I missed something?

I still haven't sorted this out. In play, we've determined Bran's (my wife's PK who is the focus of our solo campaign) three younger brothers have all taken up service with Gorlois in Cornwall. The eldest of the three is a household knight, the younger two are just mercenary knights. There is the beginnings of a feud of sorts between with eldest brother bachelor knight and Bran, whom the campaign centers around.

So have I screwed up the opportunity for those younger brother knights to join Bran's army (per KAP pages 51-52)? I guess the two twins (younger bros) could "come home" -- I presume they're under no obligation with Gorlois, particularly, since they're mercs. Also, I still don't know what to do with Bran's uncle and two sons -- knights that are supposed to be in Bran's army, according to the Family generation rules. Since Bran's father was killed just last year, what have the uncle and his boys been doing in the meantime? Running the manor house that Bran has inherited until Bran could be knighted and claim his inheritance? I had Bran hire a professional steward, so I need something else for the uncle to do.

Although I'm couching this in terms of my specific campaign, I'm really trying to understand how this works in general so I can apply my knowledge next time I have to create a new character. Basically, when you go through this army and family generation process, how do you determine what these other knights in your family are doing? Are they all assumed to be in the service of the old lord of the manor (the PK's recently deceased father) and now they just fall in line behind the new PK heir?

Thanks!


T.

So have I screwed up the opportunity for those younger brother knights to join Bran's army (per KAP pages 51-52)? I guess the two twins (younger bros) could "come home" -- I presume they're under no obligation with Gorlois, particularly, since they're mercs. Also, I still don't know what to do with Bran's uncle and two sons -- knights that are supposed to be in Bran's army, according to the Family generation rules. Since Bran's father was killed just last year, what have the uncle and his boys been doing in the meantime? Running the manor house that Bran has inherited until Bran could be knighted and claim his inheritance? I had Bran hire a professional steward, so I need something else for the uncle to do.

I think you are getting hung up on them being in the "PK's army" - are you visualising this as them basically working for the PK full time as part of his retinue?

That's not how a PK's army works. The 'army' simply lists those people who the PK can rely upon in a pinch - the guys who are expected to turn up when the shit hits the fan. Most of the time these men are doing their own thing - household knights for a neighbouring lord or similar - but blood is blood, so they'll turn out for kin if the family gets in a jam.

Needless to say, a PK 'summoning his banners' is a serious thing. It shouldn't be happening very often because, unless a clan is rich enough to support all of their menfolk as knights on the family estates, it will run the risk of putting family obligations in conflict with feudal duties.

Regards
Luke

I think you are getting hung up on them being in the "PK's army"

Ah...that may well be. Passages like this, "A vassal knight is normally accompanied by his mensie, the martial part of his household (compared to the famuli)," from BoB is what puts me off the track, perhaps.


- are you visualising this as them basically working for the PK full time as part of his retinue?

Yes, I suppose I am.


That's not how a PK's army works. The 'army' simply lists those people who the PK can rely upon in a pinch - the guys who are expected to turn up when the shit hits the fan.

What's that mean exactly? When the PK's manor is threatened? Why do these poorer sons care? The don't stand to inherit, necessarily. Under what circumstances would the brothers, uncles and cousins be called in?


Most of the time these men are doing their own thing - household knights for a neighbouring lord or similar - but blood is blood, so they'll turn out for kin if the family gets in a jam.

Okay, so these other kinsmen have other feudal obligations to other lords--most likely as household, bachelor or mercenary knights, yes? They're not likely to be landed (vassal) knights, correct?

Thanks!


M.

Most of the time these men are doing their own thing - household knights for a neighbouring lord or similar - but blood is blood, so they'll turn out for kin if the family gets in a jam.

Okay, so these other kinsmen have other feudal obligations to other lords--most likely as household, bachelor or mercenary knights, yes? They're not likely to be landed (vassal) knights, correct?



Yes, like Luke says, they are most likely to be household knights (= bachelor knights) or mercenary knights. There is no a priori reason not to make them vassal knights, but I tend to shy away from that, since I like it that the PK is the 'rich uncle' and the head of the family, which becomes harder if a relation is a rich landed knight. It is much easier and less of a hassle to have the relations be relatively 'poor' in comparison, i.e. unlanded.

The cousins/uncles/brothers and whatnot are NOT the PK's retinue! Unless your PK is wealthy enough to explicitly have some of them as his own merc/household/vassal knights.

In all of those cases, the family knights might be engaged in their own business: the merc might have accepted one Lord's coin to fight in Clarence, another is a household knight in Malahaut, which is going to war against Deira, etc... They might be unable to come even if you ask them without losing honor (and their livelihood, in the case of the household knight: his first obedience HAS to be towards his Lord, or he will swiftly find himself without a roof over his head). Household knights in particular tend to be 'on-duty' 7/24; only free to ride off on their own errands with the permission from the Lord.

Now that said, if the reason is good enough, then the Lord likely grants the request. If it is a frivolous one, then if the household knight is smart, he doesn't even ask his Lord but tells you no. Appeals to family honor and bloodfeud tend to be good reasons, in my opinion.

'Knight X abducted and raped our little sister! Revenge!' would pretty much ensure a 100% muster.

"Knight X called me a ninny! Revenge!" would gain scornful looks and getting told to look after your own honor or really be a ninny.

"Knight X has a nice fief and I am thinking of raiding it to get a new pair of gilded gold boots! Moneh!" would probably interest any unengaged merc knight (loot is always welcome and yes, they would expect to get their fair share, not give everything to you), but the household knights probably would be busy serving their lords.

"Knight X raided my fief without provocation so I am raiding back! Revenge!" might net some of the household knights, too, but not necessarily.

In short, if someone in the family is abused/killed, that tends to bring a big response. If you are just out to make a quick buck, then the turn-out is less. If it is a purely personal matter and mustering the family is clearly overkill/just to humor yourself, they tell you no.

In our campaign currently, one NPC relative is being besieged. What do his PK family and vassal knights do? Get a big (merc) army together and come to rescue him.

Wow, you're really on a roll! Again, exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. Got it.

In my campaign, the PK's mother—whom he's estranged with because she pulled a Mrs. Hamlet and married so quickly after the PK's father died in 484—was accused by her new stepsons of stealing a ring that had belonged to their dead mother. Whether she actually did it is neither here nor there, but she asked the PK to come defend her honor in a trial by combat. This was all basically a Winter Solo with just a framework and a few rolls. I had to make up a story to go along so I went back to the extended family that I'd rolled up at character creation. Now all I have to do is figure out how/why the mother got a marriage proposal so early after the death of her husband—she was not an heiress, so the only other motivations (for her new husband) seem to be beauty, love, or sheer sexual prowess. On her part she would want to maintain her lifestyle and not be lonely (she's not that old), or maybe move up the social ladder if the new hubby's a banneret or something. Anyhoo, bad blood possible between the PK and the new stepfamily (AS WELL ALL bad blood possible with his new wife's family since he knocked her up before marrying her)...

I'm also interested in what my PK's uncle is doing, because (again in Winter Solo) he came asking for a loan from the PK. So naturally questions like "what's his situation and why can't he pay off his own debts" arise. And I didn't know exactly what he's up to—or if he shouldn't come serve in his nephew's house as butler or something--except maybe he already has obligations that prohibit him from doing so? Guess it depends on whether he's a bachelor or a merc knight.

Also, I've determined that the PKs three brother knights are in the service of Duke Gorlois! The eldest of the three younger bros is a household knight at Tintagel, while the other two are merely mercs. I have an interesting possible feud between the eldest brother and my PK because my PK broke the family heirloom lance in his very first charge at Mearcred Creek! Not to mention some interesting conflicts when Uther besieges Tintagel. Also, if my PK dies before his heir comes of age, this eldest brother will become the heir's regent or whatever. It will be interesting to see what happens then. I guess he would leave Gorlois' service to come inhabit the PK's manor and manage it until the son reaches 21? Of course, accidents can and do happen to boys of such a tender age...

So LOTS of interesting family dynamics—all generated randomly, or inspired by random rolls with me interpreting and extending from random rolls on Spoonist's extended Winter Solo tables!

On our third Winter Solo (487), the PK delivered to Uther some intelligence about Gorlois' real intention/attitude after a visit from the three brothers--which helps confirm the King's suspicions of the wayward duke, and perhaps helps set the stage for events to come.

So I'm trying to understand exactly how these feudal obligations work—where they begin and end—so I can weave better stories. I still don't understand under what circumstance a knight can pledge service to multiple lords, but perhaps that's best left to a different post.

You have helped me tremendously today—twice—and the sun's not even risen yet! More glory to you, good sir!


T.

Wow, you're really on a roll! Again, exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. Got it.


You are welcome. :)



In my campaign, the PK's mother—whom he's estranged with because she pulled a Mrs. Hamlet and married so quickly after the PK's father died in 484—was accused by her new stepsons of stealing a ring that had belonged to their dead mother. Whether she actually did it is neither here nor there, but she asked the PK to come defend her honor in a trial by combat. This was all basically a Winter Solo with just a framework and a few rolls. I had to make up a story to go along so I went back to the extended family that I'd rolled up at character creation. Now all I have to do is figure out how/why the mother got a marriage proposal so early after the death of her husband—she was not an heiress, so the only other motivations (for her new husband) seem to be beauty, love, or sheer sexual prowess. On her part she would want to maintain her lifestyle and not be lonely (she's not that old), or maybe move up the social ladder if the new hubby's a banneret or something. Anyhoo, bad blood possible between the PK and the new stepfamily (AS WELL ALL bad blood possible with his new wife's family since he knocked her up before marrying her)...


Normally, I'd say such an accusation would have been a good excuse for a show of family unity, and get as many burly, armed men to glare at the accusers as possible just to show that she is not a nobody they can abuse at will, but you did mention that the PK was estranged from his momma. Which sucks for the Mom, since it seems she is pretty much disliked by everyone.

You know, Mommy Dearest did have something to keep her in style: Widow's Portion. That is 1/3rd of the ex-husband's estate (so usually 2L/yr for the rest of her life), but unless you wish to make life difficult for the PK, you may say she waived this (somehow).

The easiest would be to say that the new husband always carried a torch for Mommy Dearest and as soon as she was back on the market, as it were, and still a hottie, he leaped at the chance. After all, he apparently has heirs to spare, and Mommy Dearest is presumably an able castellan/steward in her own right, having been taking care of the PK's lands during the marriage, yes?

(By the way, don't neglect the allure of the Widow's Portion and High Stewardship skill when it comes to player knights looking for wives. If they already have a litter of heirs, older women become much more desirable. ;) )



I'm also interested in what my PK's uncle is doing, because (again in Winter Solo) he came asking for a loan from the PK. So naturally questions like "what's his situation and why can't he pay off his own debts" arise. And I didn't know exactly what he's up to—or if he shouldn't come serve in his nephew's house as butler or something--except maybe he already has obligations that prohibit him from doing so? Guess it depends on whether he's a bachelor or a merc knight.


This uncle is a knight, yes? In that case, he is a true battle-buttler, but needs at least 4L/yr to support himself. If the PK can afford it, good for him.

Otherwise, he could be needing the money, because:
1) His son needs equipment to qualify for a knight.
2) His daughter needs a dowry to get into a decent marriage.
3) He needs to pay a ransom (for himself or for a friend).
4) He needs the money to feed his horse! (If a merc knight down on his luck.)

Those would be the usual reasons. Remember, as a merc/household knight, he might actually not have any extra income himself. Merc's income fluctuates a lot depending on battlefield luck, and a household knight gets his upkeep, but not necessarily anything extra (although a Lord would be wise to cultivate a reputation of Largesse, a sure sign of a great man). That point about Largesse applies to knight's as well, by the way. Penny-pinching is for merchants! :)



Also, I've determined that the PKs three brother knights are in the service of Duke Gorlois! The eldest of the three younger bros is a household knight at Tintagel, while the other two are merely mercs. I have an interesting possible feud between the eldest brother and my PK because my PK broke the family heirloom lance in his very first charge at Mearcred Creek! Not to mention some interesting conflicts when Uther besieges Tintagel. Also, if my PK dies before his heir comes of age, this eldest brother will become the heir's regent or whatever. It will be interesting to see what happens then. I guess he would leave Gorlois' service to come inhabit the PK's manor and manage it until the son reaches 21? Of course, accidents can and do happen to boys of such a tender age...


Be very very careful about this. Kin-slaying is pretty much the WORST you can do in Medieval Society. You'd have to be borderline insane to do it, and if it were to come out, you would become a pariah in the society. After all, if you kill your own flesh and blood, who else might you betray and kill? Not to mention that the rest of the family would likely be disgusted by your act as would be the older brother's landlord, and certainly not let this kinkiller to act as a regent. Outlawing would be the likely result, IMHO.

On the other hand, twitting to the PK about breaking the priceless family heirloom, bragging about his own deeds and denigrating the PK's, hinting that Daddy liked him best and would have been a better lord than the PK ever would be... in private. In public, should someone diss one, they are brothers, thicker than thieves. 'I fight with my brother, but anybody wanting to have a piece of him has to go through me first.' Although there might be some unfavorable comparisons between Uther (that lust-addled tyrant) and Gorlois (that noble paragon) when the time comes...

DUDE, you are awesome!! Such a great help with these issues. Thanks so much!


T.