Is a demesne manor gifted or granted, or can it be either?

When a knight rolls on the random marriage table, and gets a wife with manors are those demesne or enfoeffed manors?

A demesne manor can be gifted or granted.

The manors you recieve from the marriage table are demesne manors.

So are the manor's you get for marriage only yours as long as your wife is alive, or do you keep them after her death?

You generally keep them after her death. They are yours and if u die they revert back to her. Also Demesne manors as well as any others can be gifted or granted depending on the lord's whim and how the charter is written. I kind of think they are mostly gifts however, unless u have done some really special sstuff or are a banneret. As time goes by in Arthurs reign Lord's become less inclined to give grants, And they give gifts or even money fiefs. Land becomes more valuable and scarce.

So are the manor's you get for marriage only yours as long as your wife is alive, or do you keep them after her death?


If she had children then the manor would be theirs, when they became adults (and paid relief for it). During their minority someone would be Warden of the estate. This is naturally the children's father.

If she dies without issue, then her former manor would revert to her heirs. Since she's an heiress in her own right, she probably has none with a good claim, though. So it would revert to the liege lord's possession.

The former husband could make whatever claims he has through courts, or even that tried and true stand-by of armed combat.

In any case, while under the lord's ownership it would be thoroughly investigated, and if the manor was ever to be enfoeffed again, it would be reassessed in value, and might be enfoeffed for a different number of knights and tallage this time.

--Greg

Yeah.... What that guy said! ;D

I know this is an "old" topic, but I have had something interesting happen in my game.

A PC, who has 5 manors dies. 2 of the manors where given the PC from his leige lord while the other 3 where from an heiress that he married. He currently has a son by her who is not yet at the age of majority. He has created a ward for the child, a cousin or something like that, who is holding the 2 manors that the PC had.

However, another PC who was a household knight saw an opportunity and through complete genious and blindsiding of the GM (me), along with crits on the die rolls that I imposed, very quickly saw an opportunity to console a grieving widow and marry her.

Here is what I am trying to figure out and am turning to the experts for opinions/ideas/how does this work?

1) I assumed that the 3 manors that she owned and brought into the marriage went with her in the new marriage, but what about the 2 from the PC father? Do they go with her, or does the ward created by the player get control of those 2 until the ward is old enough? Or is the new step-father in charge?

2) What happens with the manors if/when the son reaches the age of majority? Does he suddenly get control of all the manors or only the 2 from the father?

3) Lastly, if the son does not live until the age of majority, does the ward retain control (After all, why give up what's been in the family), does the heiress retain the manors as hers and therefore being transferred to the step-father and any children had between them, or do they revert back to Roderick?

I hope that all makes sense. Thanks for the input.... and for setting me straight.

As far as I understand it...

1) The heiress is in control of her 3 manors (although, as the oldest son of her loins, the first PC's son should be first in line to inherit his mother, I think). Furthermore, I think she is entitled to 1/3rd of each of the two manors as widow's portion, for her lifetime. These properties would likely be controlled by her husband during her lifetime. I think that usually, the mother (stepfather) would take care of the son's manors until he grows up, but if the Earl has appointed a guardian for the son, presumably that guardion would control the two manors (minus the widow's portion).

2) Only the two from his father, I think (again, minus the widow's portion). The other three would belong to the mother (and through her, to her new husband) until she dies.

3) The two manors of the father would revert to Earl Roderick, although the guardian might be in a good position to be the favored candidate when the manors are given out again, if he is worth them. Especially so if he is close kin. The heiress' manors would go to her other children, who wouldn't, I think, be entitled to inherit the previous husband's lands... Not of his blood, you see.

I know this is an "old" topic, but I have had something interesting happen in my game.

No problem with "old" topics if the question bring renewed clarity.


A PC, who has 5 manors dies. 2 of the manors where given the PC from his leige lord

Presumably Granted, as opposed to gifted.


while the other 3 where from an heiress that he married. He currently has a son by her who is not yet at the age of majority. He has created a ward for the child, a cousin or something like that, who is holding the 2 manors that the PC had.

However, another PC who was a household knight saw an opportunity and through complete genious and blindsiding of the GM (me), along with crits on the die rolls that I imposed, very quickly saw an opportunity to console a grieving widow and marry her.

Here is what I am trying to figure out and am turning to the experts for opinions/ideas/how does this work?

1) I assumed that the 3 manors that she owned and brought into the marriage went with her in the new marriage,

Yes.


but what about the 2 from the PC father? Do they go with her, or does the ward created by the player get control of those 2 until the ward is old enough? Or is the new step-father in charge?

Officially, 1/3 of the husband's holding (of 2 manors) goes to her, for her support as a widow. She keeps that until she dies, even if she remarries. If she married 3 times, and each husband dies, then she keeps 1/3 from each of them (!).
(See why widows are so sought after?)


2) What happens with the manors if/when the son reaches the age of majority? Does he suddenly get control of all the manors or only the 2 from the father?

Probably he will gain all 5, except for the part his mother holds as her window's portion. That is, he will gain them if the lord back his claim over that of the warden (whose possession is perhaps not legal, but heck, he's holding it, and if he is more valuable than the new knight the lord might choose to delay things.
And of course (not official in the KAP rules, but real in history) the new knight has to pay relief to get his land too.


3) Lastly, if the son does not live until the age of majority, does the ward retain control (After all, why give up what's been in the family), does the heiress retain the manors as hers and therefore being transferred to the step-father and any children had between them, or do they revert back to Roderick?

If the son dies in his minority then the 2 manors of land will go to the rightful heir, whoever he is. That is, the heir on the paternal side.
The 3 manors will go to the heir of the lady, which probably means no one (since she is the heir there is already no male heir, but it could go to a female heir). If she had another child by a new husband, then that is her heir.

--Greg

Greg, just to ask clarification on something...

The son would inherit his mother (the heiress) as soon as he grows up to be an adult? This seems like a quite raw deal for the new husband of the heiress, who until then has been the 'caretaker' of those manors. Or is this exactly what you meant by 'Probably'? Depends on who the new husband is and how good he is with the Earl?

The son would inherit his mother (the heiress) as soon as he grows up to be an adult? This seems like a quite raw deal for the new husband of the heiress, who until then has been the 'caretaker' of those manors.

Yup and also the mother as well; this is a sexist setting - she only holds this land because there is no (legally) competent male in the line of succession. As soon as the son is old enough this lack no longer applies and he takes over the estate in his own right. Of course the second husband may decide to do something about that situation, especially if the second marriage is fruitful.


Or is this exactly what you meant by 'Probably'? Depends on who the new husband is and how good he is with the Earl?

Always. This is a nation of men, not laws; there is always a constructive ambiguity that can be spun into a justification for why the 'on paper' heir's rights get over-ruled in favour of a more dynamic, resourceful or powerful alternative candidate.

Regards
Luke

This is a nation of men, not laws; there is always a constructive ambiguity that can be spun into a justification for why the 'on paper' heir's rights get over-ruled in favour of a more dynamic, resourceful or powerful alternative candidate.


Very nicely said.

-g

About this widow's portion-thingie...

1. Any difference between gifted or granted manors, when it comes to the widow's portion? Does the widow inherit her portion even if her late husband's holdings were "just" gifted?

2. When the late husband's lands are divided into the widow's portion and the heir's portion, does this happen according to any kind of system, except for the 1/3-to-widow-rule? Does she get whole manors (if the late husband's holding was larger than 3 manors), when possible, or just parts of manors ("and 2? from the mill in West Bolton")? Further, what happens with enfeoffed manors? Can they also be a part of a widow's portion?

Ciao!

// M

About this widow's portion-thingie...


I want to emphasize that its use in KAP is entirely optional to the GM's desire.



1. Any difference between gifted or granted manors, when it comes to the widow's portion? Does the widow inherit her portion even if her late husband's holdings were "just" gifted?


Historically, I am not sure. But I can hazard a guess, which I will make into my optional rule:
Gifted manors do not count for this.
They are gifted to the holder for his lifetime, which has ended, and the gifts return to the liege.



2. When the late husband's lands are divided into the widow's portion and the heir's portion, does this happen according to any kind of system, except for the 1/3-to-widow-rule? Does she get whole manors (if the late husband's holding was larger than 3 manors), when possible, or just parts of manors ("and 2? from the mill in West Bolton")?


It varied tremendously from place to place. Sometimes it was a flat cash payment, sometimes (especially among peasants, it seems) it was detailed down to the last barrel of pickles.
However, it was specified, traditionally at the door of the church, on he wedding day. For nobles, papers might be signed and sealed and witnessed.




Further, what happens with enfeoffed manors? Can they also be a part of a widow's portion?


Sure. She, or rather her warden, would still have the responsibility for providing knights and so on in the usual manner.

--Greg

Just wanted to thank Greg and everyone else for all of their input and answers. This has made things a lot clearer. Thank you all.

And of course (not official in the KAP rules, but real in history) the new knight has to pay relief to get his land too.

Just a quick question: where does the new lord get this relief payment from? Is this one of the "universal aids" and thus the new lord gets to squeeze his peasants to raise the necessary payment for him to inherit?

Or is this an instance where the new lord has to find ... creative ways ... to make up this payment over time and eventually pay back his liege lord?

And of course (not official in the KAP rules, but real in history) the new knight has to pay relief to get his land too.

Just a quick question: where does the new lord get this relief payment from? Is this one of the "universal aids" and thus the new lord gets to squeeze his peasants to raise the necessary payment for him to inherit?


No, the only universal aides are listed in the KAP book.




Or is this an instance where the new lord has to find ... creative ways ... to make up this payment over time and eventually pay back his liege lord?


Frankly, I am not sure where they would the sums required. They were large. Loans? cash inheritance? I am not really sure. But it was important, and the lords held out until they got it.

--Greg

Hi,
First post here, as our group just picked-up the game (in .pdf since it is out-of-print).
We have just rolled-up PCs, and everyone is quite excited to play. We have played many rpgs over the years, and perhaps due to this everyone has gotten very board of the "kick in the door, kill the monster, take its stuff" routine. KAP's historic approach to realism, and depth of play (you play generations of PCs) has appealed to our "jaded" group.

Sorry for the long-winded intro, but it relates to my questions:
A) I have not completely absorbed all the rules (the pdf is large), but I understand it only covers the "basics" of manors (only the level of revenue and maintenance). My players wish to get more "immersed" in manor administration/upkeep/growth/defense/etc. So obviously the "Book of Manors" is a good purchase for us. Can we purchase this book as a .pdf ?

B) Does this BoM cover random events that could occur at a PCs manor? E.g., Lord decides to visit and eats him out of house-and-home? Bandits attack? Poor weather kills crops? Disease depleats population of village?

C) If question b) is "yes", are there any military effects? For example: a player invests his wealth on defensive fortifications for his manor. Does this have any game benefit when the Saxons sweep through his lands (perhaps a bonus in the Book of Battles)?

Thank you so much for any advice.

Hi, and welcome aboard.



Sorry for the long-winded intro, but it relates to my questions:
A) I have not completely absorbed all the rules (the pdf is large), but I understand it only covers the "basics" of manors (only the level of revenue and maintenance). My players wish to get more "immersed" in manor administration/upkeep/growth/defense/etc. So obviously the "Book of Manors" is a good purchase for us. Can we purchase this book as a .pdf ?

No. The books are only available as printed copies. As far as I know, Greg does not have the rights to sell digital Pendragon products.



B) Does this BoM cover random events that could occur at a PCs manor? E.g., Lord decides to visit and eats him out of house-and-home? Bandits attack? Poor weather kills crops? Disease depleats population of village?

Yes it does.



C) If question b) is "yes", are there any military effects? For example: a player invests his wealth on defensive fortifications for his manor. Does this have any game benefit when the Saxons sweep through his lands (perhaps a bonus in the Book of Battles)?

Yes. If you fortify your manor it is more resistant to raids and attack.

Hi, and welcome aboard.

Thanks Sir Pramalot. That is exactly the info we wanted to hear. ;D
We'll be picking up the BoM right away!

No problem. And without wishing to blow my own trumpet, you might want to have a look here;

http://www.gspendragon.com/roundtable/index.php?topic=242.msg2010;topicseen#msg2010

They are expanded Manor luck tables reworked from the BoM. They will give you a good idea of just one aspect of the book.