I find the Roman specialty skill of Law a tad odd. OK not the skill itself but the skills it encompasses; Intrigue and Courtesy fair enough but Folk Lore?

I have a Roman PK with a Law of 22. He revels in the Intrigue and Courtesy of court, is pretty aloof and spends next to no time with the peasants or involved in the less refined aspects of life. However, due to his skill, he is the font of all knowledge re peasant matters "a cure for baldness? aye, smear pig poo on your head.", "Its late February, you should've planted those turnips by now". Even the "communicate knowledge of 'folksy' ways" part of the skill doesn't seem something that he should naturally be an expert at.

Wouldn't Just be a better fit here? eg the character can *choose* to use his Law skill instead of Just when it suits him, such as when settling disputes using the Justice rolls from BoTM. This is a more "Law" orientated skill and fits some of the Roman luck items (eg the Institutes of Gaius - a legal textbook - which gives a +3 to Law, not something you would think to be particularly beneficial to folklore).

Please go to KAP5.1, page 84, and read the definition of Folk Lore.
It isn't Folklore.

hehe but Greg I did! It might have *aspects* that are not Folklore but for the most part...

"Folk Lore includes information on many subjects, from such ordinary things as the lore of pigs or local landmarks, all the way to the household herbal cures passed from old women to their female descendants. It includes thousands of tiny facts useful to daily living, such as when to plant, how to tell if the coming winter will be hard, and how to cheat the tax collector, as well as a certain amount of nonsense, such as how to rid oneself of warts, charms to kill rats, and songs to make the plants grow."

Most of that, especially the latter stuff, is not something I would expect a Roman to be naturally gifted at.

"Folk Lore is used in play when a knight observes peasants to determine what they are doing, or when trying to evaluate how they feel. It may also be used to gain a benefit in communicating with peasants. In this case, a successful Folk Lore roll indicates that the knight has communicated
his friendliness and knowledge of “folksy” ways, presumably making the peasant more agreeable and less afraid."

This suggests empathy with peasants and their folksy ways. OK fair enough this is something a Roman would have skill at - eg Diplomacy. I think the issue - for me- is that the skill is so broad. Empathy does not equal knowledge of peasant quackery and old wives' tales. And you still have a skill called Law which has no "Law" component to it.

Perhaps I should just call it "Diplomacy" :)

You'll get credit for the errata notice then. 10 glory buddy. :)
This is not well written and does not convey the ideas I thought it bore.
It is messy, confusing how a peasant uses it to what it means to a knight.
(wow, look at that editorial sterness, eh? ;) Can you tell that I am detail-critiquing a manuscript right now? :) )


This suggests empathy with peasants and their folksy ways. OK fair enough this is something a Roman would have skill at

I doubt it--the key of Romans is that they are urban (and urbane).
That warm fuzzy bad writing was a remnant of some old noblesse oblige portions of it.
I think I'll replace it with this
Peasant Lore
Common people have their own way of life that is entirely different from that of important people. They have crude equivalents of manners, customs like marriage and a set of primitive emotions that can erupt violently, whether its hate-provoking assaults or or excessive respect. Their daily lives are filled with dirt, seeds and animals. They are so different that it's difficult to tell what they really feel or mean.
Peasant Lore includes huge amounts of Ancient Law and Custom, especially those parts that protect themselves. By such knowledge they know they must be subservient, and they always present themselves through their version of that old law and custom. They love law more than they love knights.


- eg Diplomacy. I think the issue - for me- is that the skill is so broad. Empathy does not equal knowledge of peasant quackery and old wives' tales. And you still have a skill called Law which has no "Law" component to it.

Perhaps I should just call it "Diplomacy" :)

You may, but I might save some hassle when I admit that Diplomacy is uswed as a different skill.
Diplomacy
Diplomacy is the skill of refined civilized discourse used by lords and kings (or their representatives). Diplomacy is required in dealing with other powerful people in a formal and friendly or neutral, manner. It includes the knowledge of customs, and especially of particular negotiation customs, of the other party; understanding of the personalities involved; and of language, both subtle and blunt as needed. It requires knowledge of what other powerful people are doing, where that action might bear on this discussion. The diplomat also has to know what gift to give, when, and what would be too much.
Diplomacy is used to settle disputes between earls; or with one of the king’s officers; or with a city, bishop, abbot, or tribe. It’s also used to set up formal, prearranged battles, to bring peace, to set terms of mutual raiding with neighbors, negotiate marriages between powerful families, etc.
This skill is also used to end a Feud with Neighbor.

Need I add this is in the Book of Barons?

Greg,

I think it should go somewhere where it becomes "official errata/rule clarification". Book of Baron is a good place as that book is specifically for nobles, the higher end.

Bob Schroeder

I think it should go somewhere where it becomes "official errata/rule clarification". Book of Baron is a good place as that book is specifically for nobles, the higher end.

I am confident that my errata master will put it into the official errata: the one on my web site.
He's new at this so be kind, and send to him any url where I made such a correction
This is for my approved corrections, not proposals for changes
Thank you all!

Thanks for the clarification. It wasn't actually the Folklore skill I thought odd just the fact that it came under the Roman Law skill specialty. So;

Does Peasant Lore now replace Folk Lore or is it a new skill?
What does the Roman specialty skill now consist of? Courtesy, Intrigue, and Peasant Lore?
Would you recommend using Peasant Lore to resolve peasant Justice Events (BoTM2 p.19) rather than Just?

Thanks for the clarification. It wasn't actually the Folklore skill I thought odd just the fact that it came under the Roman Law skill specialty.

Rightly


Does Peasant Lore now replace Folk Lore or is it a new skill?

Replace
there's no need for a skill for peaswants


What does the Roman specialty skill now consist of? Courtesy, Intrigue, and Peasant Lore?

Yes


Would you recommend using Peasant Lore to resolve peasant Justice Events (BoTM2 p.19) rather than Just?

No

Greg,

please consider the following:

I am not sure redefining Folklore to be only Peasant Lore is a good idea. On the surface, it makes some sense. It seems like an effort to make sure that people know the Folklore skill is supposed to pertain primarily to knowledge of common-folk matters, and, as an attempt to do so, it certainly is decent. However, in the process, it may be redefining the skill to narrowly and removing certain necessary knowledge skills from the game entirely.

Example - There would be superstitions about things a woman could do that would supposedly make her conceive a child -- Several of those superstitions would be known and followed not just by peasant women, but also noble women. Would this "new" (or as I think of it - "redefined") skill still cover knowledge of such superstitions? My reading of the new skill would be, "No." This leaves there to be no skill that would cover such knowledge, and I think knowledge of such superstitions and other common "knowledges" add to the feel of the Pendragon campaign and the cultures folks are running and playing.

Another example - No matter what class of life you are, in this time period, traveling across a body of water, particularly when you cannot see your destination from the point you plan to leave from, is a daunting proposition. Every culture has superstitions about it that will cross class boundaries. How are those covered? Under the new definition, Peasant Lore would not fit. Intrigue wouldn't either. Faerie Lore might under the correct circumstances, but will not always. So there are many cultural aspects that may make the game make more sense, give it better texture or put it in better context that might be missed by eliminating a way for characters to determine what their players may not know in this regard.

Third Example -- Under the old rule, the knowledge by Cymric characters that Saxons are big, bad, fighting brutes who procreate like rabbits and have strangely attractive women (may be because it is understood they can procreate like rabbits), would best fit under Folklore. Where does it fit under the new rule? Would that be under Intrigue instead, since it is an impression that noble folk could have as well?

Or may be I am over thinking this, and it just doesn't matter.

It comes from one of my players, who is also playing a Roman, who just happens to be in the "law" field as well. I think the examples are well thought out.

Bob Schroeder

Bob - I second that. I feel the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater here. I too have use for the old Folklore skill in my game. What I don't have is any great belief that a Roman should be naturally gifted in such matters by virtue of his Law skill.

I am not sure redefining Folklore to be only Peasant Lore is a good idea. On the surface, it makes some sense. [snip]
Example - There would be superstitions

As an aid to clarity, we let us start with a proper perspective
No one practices superstitions
They are using contemporary medicine


about things a woman could do that would supposedly make her conceive a child -- Several of those superstitions would be known and followed not just by peasant women, but also noble women.
Would this "new" (or as I think of it - "redefined") skill still cover knowledge of such superstitions? My reading of the new skill would be, "No."

If it is known by noble women, it is part of their medicine, not folk lore


This leaves there to be no skill that would cover such knowledge, and I think knowledge of such superstitions and other common "knowledges" add to the feel of the Pendragon campaign and the cultures folks are running and playing.

1. In a game about knights, there is really a limited need for folk real knowledge concerning pregnancy.
2. If it is known to noble women, then it is part of their knowledge, not of Folk Lore or Folklore
Information known by everyone doesn't need definition or clarification.
3. I am trying to imagine how the "Things peasants know" would apply in the game. Remember, this isn't "all things that all commoners might know," this is "things peasants know about things only peasants do."
Admittedly, this is a useful skill for knights, but it is not a normal one. How would they know it?
I am not speaking of the not-in-the-books exceptions, like a commoner becoming a knight. If we are talking about how to make, run and use these exceptions then I would have a different take on it. But the aristocratic aloofness to mundane matters is integral to the setting.


Another example - No matter what class of life you are, in this time period, traveling across a body of water, particularly when you cannot see your destination from the point you plan to leave from, is a daunting proposition. Every culture has superstitions about it that will cross class boundaries. How are those covered? Under the new definition, Peasant Lore would not fit. Intrigue wouldn't either. Faerie Lore might under the correct circumstances, but will not always. So there are many cultural aspects that may make the game make more sense, give it better texture or put it in better context that might be missed by eliminating a way for characters to determine what their players may not know in this regard.

Information that everyone knows or could know (healing plants, how to cross water, saying a prayer before eating, etc.) which "cross class boundaries" are part of either "what everyone knows" or "everyone knows it so it's not important enough for a die roll."


Third Example -- Under the old rule, the knowledge by Cymric characters that Saxons are big, bad, fighting brutes who procreate like rabbits and have strangely attractive women (may be because it is understood they can procreate like rabbits), would best fit under Folklore. Where does it fit under the new rule? Would that be under Intrigue instead, since it is an impression that noble folk could have as well?

Common knowledge, whether true or false, is common knowledge, not contained under any skill category


Or may be I am over thinking this, and it just doesn't matter.
I sense that you are taking the modern definition of what we call Folklore (i.e., any oral tradition) and applying it here exclusively to the (common) folk.


It comes from one of my players, who is also playing a Roman, who just happens to be in the "law" field as well. I think the examples are well thought out.

they are good questions and worthy of clarification
Romans are especially urban and ignorant of anything about the commoners who live out on the heath or field
The intent here is that Romans know Law, the rules of government,civilizations and culture
Everyone knows their own Law--in fact, written laws is being derived from the Common Law, aka Ancient Custom and Law," that is the basis for their culture
All peasants know their part in the law of the land
It is their only protection from their own lords
Romans know peasant law too.