Well, my wife opted for staying and defending Britain in 488, so I'm going to try and make the most of the Water Leapers scenario. I have a few questions about it though. Although I understand Greg prefers one question at a time, hopefully I can get a dispensation since these are all related to a specific scenario! Here goes.

1.) Water Leaper glory: Although a poster in another thread asks why the Water Leapers provide 100 pts of Glory, my question is shouldn't the PKs get more for the successful completion of this mission than just the amount for the kills alone? After all, they are instrumental in securing King Cadwy’s loyalty for King Uther. This task would seem to me worth at least an additional 100 (Heroic Task), maybe more since it's performed for royalty. Seems like they would be very ingratiated with the king if they pull this off...

2.) Where are these water-leaper-plagued marshes? Near Bath, I take it, since the Uther/Cadwy negotiations are held there? What's the the nearest spot with suitable geography for this task? I saw another group suggest the Ebble River in their blog, but this seems too removed from Somerset to me...

UPDATE: Nevermind. Some research on good ol' Wikipedia reveals Bath used to surrounded by swamps and marshes before the River Avon was tamed by weirs that channeled the river into just a couple of courses. So this one's easy. Just about anywhere around Bath is suitable terrain.

3.) When Uther travels, does he have any members of the clergy in his retinue? What other VIPS, besides Merlin, are likely to come along (on the journey itself—not the expedition against the leapers)? Brastius, I imagine. Whom else would we expect the king to bring along on his Progress, or missions such as this one?

4.) So the PKs decide to stay for this mission instead go going to Gaul—would Earl Roderick travel with them? The handoff between "staying behind to ward the realm against Saxon attacks" and this mission to secure Cadwy's loyalty is kinda sloppy. There's a continuity disconnect there I'm trying to bridge. Yes, I sweat these kinds of details. *Sigh*. I can't help myself...

5.) How big are water leapers, anyway? If they're a large enough predator bowl over a man, it seems like they'd need a fairly substantial wingspan to be able to glide as they do. I'm thinking maybe the size of a large hog? The wingspan alone (at least 15 feet, I reckon—even considering a fantasy setting where real physics don't matter) makes getting inside a boat that's only large enough to hold 2-3 men extremely unlikely (for the Death Throes action).

I know some of this is up to GM creativity and fiat, I'm just curious about others' opinions. Consider it a mini-brainstorming session!

A few observations of my own: I was delighted to learn the water leapers are an authentic monster from Celtic mythology—they're called llamhigyn y dwr (roughly pronounced "chlamyeegin ee door"). They're also said to have poisonous stingers not unlike a manta ray. This is something that didn't make it into the official representation but it could easily be added for those who don't think these guys present enough of a threat to warrant 100 Glory.

It sounds like the most likely types of boats to be employed in this scenario is a coracle. So it would seem the Boating skill would very important to the success of this mission (even though nothing's made of this in the scenario). I think they'll need guides and/or pilots therefore they can rent these skills, if they can persuade some of the fishermen to go (and ff course, King Cadwy can always command his peoples' participation). So we have one knight and maybe one pilot/guide per boat. Although I don't quite understand how one would "pole boats together" to offset the leapers' gang-up tactics, there may be an opportunity to use fishermen's nets to ensnare the flying monsters. Seems like nets and javelins, arrows, or spears are the best weapon choices—and perhaps no armor! Keeping one's footing on the boats may also result in Balance tests and various penalties for combat actions.

Do any other tactics come to mind beside trying to slug it out toe-to-toe with theses creatures? Some sort of toxins? Powder thrown in bags that rupture in the water? What about getting an oxygen tank in the maw of one of these babies, then blowing it sky-high with a high-powered carbine? Kidding.

One final question: My wife is not all that great at coming up with battle tactics, and we don't have a group where people who are can bounce ideas around (it's a solo campaign). So how I can simulate these flashes of martial inspiration? Can I use the Battle skill where Success means you've thought of a viable tactic and a Crit means you've thought of a really inspired tactic? Then maybe Failure means the player is on her own and a Fumble means the PKs thought of a tactic that seems like a good plan, but there's one critical thing he didn't reckon with...

Thanks,


T.

One final question: My wife is not all that great at coming up with battle tactics, and we don't have a group where people who are can bounce ideas around (it's a solo campaign). So how I can simulate these flashes of martial inspiration? Can I use the Battle skill where Success means you've thought of a viable tactic and a Crit means you've thought of a really inspired tactic? Then maybe Failure means the player is on her own and a Fumble means the PKs thought of a tactic that seems like a good plan, but there's one critical thing he didn't reckon with...


That's how our group uses Battle. We also use it for Leadership, although actual pre-battle speeches are Orate.

My players are developing a downright distressing tendency to Fumble their Battle rolls at critical junctures.

It sounds like the most likely types of boats to be employed in this scenario is a coracle.

Or punts. They have the advantage (for players) of being more easily 'rafted up' than coracles, whilst (for GMs) they offer ample opportunity for trip hazards - or slip hazards if your PKs went to Cambridge...

Regards
Luke

Or punts. They have the advantage (for players) of being more easily 'rafted up' than coracles, whilst (for GMs) they offer ample opportunity for trip hazards - or slip hazards if your PKs went to Cambridge...

Thanks! I wasn't familiar with this type of craft. I thought of rafts too, but, doing a little research it look like rafts (and punts) are designed for shallow waters and rivers mostly, being propelled as they are by long poles and having no provision for oars. I've already established that the water leapers are living in a fairly deep lake, so the punt may not be a good choice after all. Too, they're awfully narrow, so you'd only be able to take a step or two back before falling off. Hm...if the oar issue can be overcome, maybe I'll give the PK a choice. I'll need to work out the pros and cons of each.


T.

SNIPPAGE
.....maybe I'll give the PK a choice. (more snippage)
T.
Honestly, most players won't have any idea what the choices would be, and most knights wouldn't have had a much better idea either.

What you might do is have them make a Boating skill check (or if they are smart find a peasant with a high boating skill to do it for them) - and if they make the check then they select a "solid craft that doesn't rock too much." Maybe they get a +1 when it comes time to staying in the boat.

If they fail the check then there is no negative effect, they simply don't get the slight positive bonus.

Pax Arturus

Well, my wife and I finished the Water Leapers adventure tonight. I developed some fun (to my mind, anyway, and I think the wife enjoyed them as well) rules that made the expedition more thrilling involving the handling of the boats, capsizing, fighting with unsteady footing in a cramped craft, etc. From the Water Leaper stats provided in KAP 5.1, I extrapolated water leaper spawn and a "queen" water leaper (that unfortunately met with a quiet and somewhat ignoble end when an NPC critted her but good on her first attack—oh well). My knights went in unarmored altogether an this was a critical decision because they all ended up in the drink at one point or another. All six knights survived, but it would've been disastrous and a far different outcome if they'd gone in with wearing mail.

But now what about Glory? No one ever responded to this point so I'd like to try again:



1.) Water Leaper glory: Although a poster in another thread asks why the Water Leapers provide 100 pts of Glory, my question is shouldn't the PKs get more for the successful completion of this mission than just the amount for the kills alone? After all, they are instrumental in securing King Cadwy’s loyalty for King Uther. This task would seem to me worth at least an additional 100 (Heroic Task), maybe more since it's performed for royalty. Seems like they would be very ingratiated with the king if they pull this off...


The knights recruited some archers from King Cawdy, and had one per boat (there were six coracles). I know Glory is halved when one uses ranged weapons, but what if the knights themselves don't but their hired helpers/allies/mercs/henchmen do? I mean, knights ride into battle supported by archers all the time, does it make a difference when the enemy is monsters instead of Saxons? The archers didn't play a huge part in the battle and the knights ended up doing most of the fighting. Also, I had 5 NPC knights and, of course, my one wifey PK. How should I go about rewarding Glory? The PK killed one on his own, for sure, but assisted with some other kills. And I'm not sure how to factor in the hired archers. Again, they played a smaller part, and half of them got et by the water leapers. Then there's the whole—we secured King's Cadwy's loyalty aspect. What's that worth?

Thanks!


T.

Generally, I'd say that the Glory will be halved if there are ranged weapons used in combat by the knight's side. The rationale being that they are used to soften up the enemy and hence it is less glorious. Battles are a special case, as there you do not gain glory per kill, but per round. Otherwise, I know my knights would go into combat with four archers each and have them soften up the opposition first, before charging in to claim the kills.

In the particular case of the water leapers, I'd ask you how the archers were used? Did they merely take snapshots at water leapers coming at them, thus in practice acting like a melee fighter, or did they concentrate their fire on the water leapers attacking the knights? In the former case, I would not reduce the Glory, but in the latter, I would. Also remember to share the glory with the archers; having a host of NPCs helping you is bad for your Glory, but good for your survival. ;) (You said many of the archers got eaten, so they clearly were in the thick of it, and acted as 'meatshields' for the knights.)

As for the mission glory, having it shared between twelve participants (6 knights and 6 archers), it would not amount to too much... Maybe 10 Glory each (for a total ~100 for the mission)? Sounds about right to me. After all, while the political consequences might be big, the action itself was 'merely' Heroic in scope, and most of the leverage was no doubt provided by the military muscle Uther possessed. It would have been different if, say, the PK(s) would have managed on their own to convince a neutral king to ride to Uther's aid in one of the battles, and turning the Saxon tide. I could have rewarded something like 100+250 for that and whatever they get from the battle itself.

Thanks, Morien! You are a jewel in the crown of these here forums. I so appreciate you taking the time to help me find my Pendragon-legs!



Generally, I'd say that the Glory will be halved if there are ranged weapons used in combat by the knight's side. The rationale being that they are used to soften up the enemy and hence it is less glorious. Battles are a special case, as there you do not gain glory per kill, but per round. Otherwise, I know my knights would go into combat with four archers each and have them soften up the opposition first, before charging in to claim the kills.

Ah, that's a good point, and I understand it. In this case, I guess the way I looking at it was the threat was impossible to assess from a PK perspective—how many Water Leapers? How tough are they? We can't swim! There's no possibility for reserves—we win or die. How can we attack flying creatures, when we have no ranged weapons? We can't even throw our Spears (per KAP 5.1)! So they thought taking archers was only prudent given all the "unknown unknowns".


In the particular case of the water leapers, I'd ask you how the archers were used? Did they merely take snapshots at water leapers coming at them, thus in practice acting like a melee fighter, or did they concentrate their fire on the water leapers attacking the knights?

They took opportunity shots wherever they could. This wasn't all that often due to line of site issues, etc., but they nevertheless made a contribution.


In the former case, I would not reduce the Glory, but in the latter, I would. Also remember to share the glory with the archers; having a host of NPCs helping you is bad for your Glory, but good for your survival. ;) (You said many of the archers got eaten, so they clearly were in the thick of it, and acted as 'meatshields' for the knights.)

Well, not explicitly, and my sole PK did not recruit them for that, as one might suspect. It was more of "what if we can't lay a sword on these things because they're flying?" Most died after the boats capsized and they were attacked from the depths and pulled to the bottom of the lake to be devoured.


As for the mission glory, having it shared between twelve participants (6 knights and 6 archers), it would not amount to too much... Maybe 10 Glory each (for a total ~100 for the mission)? Sounds about right to me. After all, while the political consequences might be big, the action itself was 'merely' Heroic in scope, and most of the leverage was no doubt provided by the military muscle Uther possessed. It would have been different if, say, the PK(s) would have managed on their own to convince a neutral king to ride to Uther's aid in one of the battles, and turning the Saxon tide. I could have rewarded something like 100+250 for that and whatever they get from the battle itself.


Well, let's see... I had 1 PK knight, 5 NPC knights, 6 archers, and 6 fisherman/boaters.

7 standard water leapers (100 glory each) were defeated, along with 1 "boss" leaper (my own design w/ 150 Glory) and 8 leaper "spawn" (young water leapers of my own design worth 50 each). That's a total pool of 1250 Glory.

If I share this between 12 participants (I don't need t share glory with fishermen/pilots, right?) that's 104 a piece, for the kills. Now, my PK was the first to volunteer and basically the leader of the expedition—he recruited the archers and fishermen (with a crit on his Folk Lore roll), led the dry-runs on the coracles, etc. Should he get some extra consideration in the mission Glory? Let's see, if it's worth 100 for "heroic" task, then that's worth 8 and change per participant. Should I award the "change" to the PK, for being the leader? That would leave everyone else with 8 and him with 12 for a total of 100. then, he rolled a crit in the retelling of the tale to Uther's Court! Ordinarily, a success is worth 10, but what should a crit with the king be? Considering the politics now... should I double it, for 20?

That would leave the PK with a total of 136 for the Water Leapers adventure. Sound right? The only other thing I can thing of is the crit on the Folk Lore roll. Now the KAP book says you don't normally win Glory for Folk Lore rolls; but in this case the PK critted on the role which made it easier to recruit the fishermen/pilots, who were vital to the operation. On the other hand, I guess their lord could have commanded their service. So should I consider the Folk Lore check in the Winter Phase to be award enough, or award an additional 10 Glory for the crit?

I know there's subjectivity in this, and no ironclad rules—I just want to know if I'm thinking about this in the right way, given the provided framework. You've already helped clarify my thinking, Morien, thanks!


T.

Thanks, Morien! You are a jewel in the crown of these here forums. I so appreciate you taking the time to help me find my Pendragon-legs!


Aw shucks, no. More like a dent on the side where some hamfisted fool dropped the crown on the floor. :) I am simply doing what other people did and still do for me when I have questions. You might want to keep those jewels for people like Greg, Darren, Luke and Sir Stinky Fish. :)

And I do enjoy talking about Pendragon, and pondering rules and situations, so it is a win-win. :)



So they thought taking archers was only prudent given all the "unknown unknowns".


Definitely a prudent check there, in my opinion. But more people = less risk = less Glory (per person). :) Also note that there is an additional bonus to Glory if the knight overcomes clear unfavorable odds (3:1 = 100 extra Glory per knight), but note that this needs to be balanced by the actual abilities of the assailants, not just their numbers! 3 peasants attacking one knight is not unfavorable odds for the knight!



Well, not explicitly, and my sole PK did not recruit them for that, as one might suspect. It was more of "what if we can't lay a sword on these things because they're flying?" Most died after the boats capsized and they were attacked from the depths and pulled to the bottom of the lake to be devoured.

And had the archers not have been there to be devoured, the knights would have been pulled under and eaten, yes? Hence 'meatshields': taking the damage which otherwise (randomly) would have gone to the knights.



If I share this between 12 participants (I don't need t share glory with fishermen/pilots, right?) that's 104 a piece, for the kills. Now, my PK was the first to volunteer and basically the leader of the expedition—he recruited the archers and fishermen (with a crit on his Folk Lore roll), led the dry-runs on the coracles, etc. Should he get some extra consideration in the mission Glory? Let's see, if it's worth 100 for "heroic" task, then that's worth 8 and change per participant. Should I award the "change" to the PK, for being the leader? That would leave everyone else with 8 and him with 12 for a total of 100. then, he rolled a crit in the retelling of the tale to Uther's Court! Ordinarily, a success is worth 10, but what should a crit with the king be? Considering the politics now... should I double it, for 20?


Lets start with the last first, the Orate crit at Uther's court... I'd at least double it, but I might also give more Glory for a success at the King's court, like 20 to start with. So I might be rewarding like 40 for a crit. But that is just me.

No, you don't count non-combatants, usually. Even though I guess the boatmen did provide something to nibble on, same as the archers. I'd ignore the boatmen here. I see you did not divide by two for the use of missile weapons. Given the type of encounter, I am not going to gainsay you. You know the situation, and given that the Glory is getting divided, it is not excessive for the PK anyway. Another thing that you can do to reward him (other than the Orate crit), is to look how many leapers did he kill, personally, especially without assists from anyone else? That might increase his share. And you might give him a bigger slice of the mission glory, too, like you suggested: I might go for a 7*11+23 for the leader -split. (Hmm, this issue of Glory sharing might be worth another thread.)

Again, it is much easier when you are dealing with a single PK: the non-player knights are unlikely to complain if they get less Glory. :P

Oh, missed answering the Folk Lore question... I think I would say no, since as you point out, they would have gotten the help anyway, and being chummy with smelly peasants is not exactly a Glory-winning exercise. ;) Besides, I think the PK is getting enough Glory thanks to that Orate and maybe a bit bigger share of the leaper kills (if appropriate).

Aw shucks, no. More like a dent on the side where some hamfisted fool dropped the crown on the floor. :) I am simply doing what other people did and still do for me when I have questions. You might want to keep those jewels for people like Greg, Darren, Luke and Sir Stinky Fish. :)

You are as consistently thorough and thoughtful in your answers as anyone here, so I stand by my appraisal, sir!


Definitely a prudent check there, in my opinion.

Ah, so even though he didn't roll for Prudent (the PK's trait is only a 10) I can just make him check—or are you suggested a 1-tick Prudent increase by GM fiat?


But more people = less risk = less Glory (per person). :)

Yep, I understand.


Also note that there is an additional bonus to Glory if the knight overcomes clear unfavorable odds (3:1 = 100 extra Glory per knight), but note that this needs to be balanced by the actual abilities of the assailants, not just their numbers! 3 peasants attacking one knight is not unfavorable odds for the knight!

Y'know I actually considered that, but it turns out there weren't 3:1 odds any way, even if you only count the knights. Plus I figured that only applied to man-to-man combat, 'cause otherwise how do you assess the strength of a monster compared to a knight?


And had the archers not have been there to be devoured, the knights would have been pulled under and eaten, yes? Hence 'meatshields': taking the damage which otherwise (randomly) would have gone to the knights.

Agreed. That was the end result, but I did determine who got attacked each round by totally random methods—I thought it was important that I mention the PK did not recruit the archers with this intention, however. He didn't say, "Y'know, if I get some red shirts here, it will increase my odds of not being attacked". I don't know that intent makes any difference—but the PK wasn't trying to game the system—he just honestly thought he might be totally screwed if he couldn't lay a glove on the flying frogs.


Lets start with the last first, the Orate crit at Uther's court... I'd at least double it, but I might also give more Glory for a success at the King's court, like 20 to start with. So I might be rewarding like 40 for a crit. But that is just me.

Okay, cool.


I see you did not divide by two for the use of missile weapons. Given the type of encounter, I am not going to gainsay you. You know the situation, and given that the Glory is getting divided, it is not excessive for the PK anyway.

The way I was thinking about it, the knights didn't use ranged weapons, and they're already sharing half the Glory with six non-knights!


Another thing that you can do to reward him (other than the Orate crit), is to look how many leapers did he kill, personally, especially without assists from anyone else? That might increase his share.

Yeah, he killed one, absolutely, by himself. A few of the other knights did, too. Should I take them out of the communal "share" pool, then?


And you might give him a bigger slice of the mission glory, too, like you suggested: I might go for a 7*11+23 for the leader -split. (Hmm, this issue of Glory sharing might be worth another thread.)

Yep, I considered that but didn't know if maybe I was being too generous. But good feedback, thanks!


Again, it is much easier when you are dealing with a single PK: the non-player knights are unlikely to complain if they get less Glory. :P

So true. I don't have to worry about player dynamics with these rewards. But, as Greg said elsewhere recently, he (and some of you others here) have spent years tweaking this out so that knights grow at a "realistic" clip. I want to make sure I honor all that experimentation and wisdom by giving the proper awards.

Thanks again,


T.

Yeah, he killed one, absolutely, by himself. A few of the other knight did, too. Should I take them out of the communal "share" pool, then?


Yes, I would. I am just about to post on the Rule Questions, you might wish to take a look there in 5 min or so.




And you might give him a bigger slice of the mission glory, too, like you suggested: I might go for a 7*11+23 for the leader -split. (Hmm, this issue of Glory sharing might be worth another thread.)

Yep, I considered that but didn't know if maybe I was being too generous. But good feedback, thanks!


Actually, rereading the Group Glory Award, I would divide the Glory equally (so say 8 Glory per person) and then give the Leader extra 10 Glory for good (but not amazing) leadership.

Well, my wife opted for staying and defending Britain in 488, so I'm going to try and make the most of the Water Leapers scenario.
I have a few questions about it though. Although I understand Greg prefers one question at a time, hopefully I can get a dispensation since these are all related to a specific scenario! Here goes.

I always prefer to let others answer.
Many well informed members participate regularly here
If no one knows, or I find my opinion differs, I usually butt in too


1.) Water Leaper glory: Although a poster in another thread asks why the Water Leapers provide 100 pts of Glory, my question is shouldn't the PKs get more for the successful completion of this mission than just the amount for the kills alone? After all, they are instrumental in securing King Cadwy’s loyalty for King Uther. This task would seem to me worth at least an additional 100 (Heroic Task), maybe more since it's performed for royalty. Seems like they would be very ingratiated with the king if they pull this off...

Hm, I can always say KAP5.1 page so and so that say to do that
but I'd be cheating
so Instead, I say, MAKE IT SO!
SIR STEWARD, please


2.) Where
4.) So the PKs decide to stay for this mission instead go going to Gaul—would Earl Roderick travel with them? The handoff between "staying behind to ward the realm against Saxon attacks" and this mission to secure Cadwy's loyalty is kinda sloppy. There's a continuity disconnect there I'm trying to bridge. Yes, I sweat these kinds of details. *Sigh*. I can't help myself...

I suggest you learn to enjoy them as creative opportunities
or else
read way far in advance to get answers.
GPC is endemic with these assumed transitions.


A few observations of my own: I was delighted to learn the water leapers are an authentic monster from Celtic mythology—they're called llamhigyn y dwr (roughly pronounced "chlamyeegin ee door"). They're also said to have poisonous stingers not unlike a manta ray. This is something that didn't make it into the official representation but it could easily be added for those who don't think these guys present enough of a threat to warrant 100 Glory.

All the monsters in KAP can be found in British Folklore, British myth, Arthurian legend, fair lore and tales, or place-legends from before 1500.


One final question: My wife is not all that great at coming up with battle tactics, and we don't have a group where people who are can bounce ideas around (it's a solo campaign). So how I can simulate these flashes of martial inspiration? Can I use the Battle skill where Success means you've thought of a viable tactic and a Crit means you've thought of a really inspired tactic? Then maybe Failure means the player is on her own and a Fumble means the PKs thought of a tactic that seems like a good plan, but there's one critical thing he didn't reckon with...

Excellent solution
if you are prepared for every eventuality.
I do it to challenge myself as GM, because I have a pretty good idea or can make one up
To GM effectively, know the answers in advance.
or
Crit: they realize the black turgid water is only 3 feet deep
Success: they hire peasants with boats who tell them, "are you mad sir? How about this flatboat over here?" You did, get a Folk Knowledge check.
Fail: give the player a choice: coracles or rafts?
Fumble Learn it's only a foot or so deep and the commoners walk in it all the time. After 1 step the player cannot get loose until he makes a STR roll. Is this likely to work?You hear laughter, and it's the commoners out in their boats. Want to try again?