So the gazetteer on page 32 of GPC states that the Duchy of Cornwall includes the counties of Tintagel, Devon and Jagent. This is also illustrated on the 485-495 map of Logres in the Uther Period.

In the "Excalibur's Peace" adventure on page 47, we get the scene from Boorman's EXCALIBUR where Arthur meets Gorlois "outside of Somerset" (presumably this is near Ilchester, just inside Jegent) agrees to give Gorlois "All the land from here to the sea to hold for the king."

Waitaminute—isn't that status quo arrangement? He's already the Duke of that land, albeit nominally due to his independent streak. This doesn't seem to me much of an incentive for the Duke. You would expect him to be double his holdings in the deal, maybe more, but this agreement offers no territorial expansion and no increase of wealth, influence or Glory.

What am I missing?

Thanks,


T.

He gets *acknowledgement* !!

He gets the promise that Uther won't try and take it away.

And don't forget that at that moment, Uther is holding the Sword of Victory, which might be swaying Duke Gorlois towards accepting what is offered.

Hrm. Thanks, MrUkpyr, but I can't get my head around that. Being that Gorlois is a duke means that he's already Uther's vassal and already legitimately holds those lands. Indeed, Uther's constant bellyaching over the past few years about Gorlois' recalcitrance seems to underscore this lord/vassal relationship, tenuous though it may be. So, in this encounter Uther is just reiterating the status quo and Gorlois "accepts?" I get the whole presence-of-Excalibur thing, but the dialog between the king and the duke loses all of it's tension—and frankly, becomes non-sensical to me—if they're just re-establishing the status quo.


Best,


T.

The barons want more independence from their supposed liege. The king wants more control over his supposed vassals. Oh no! How will they resolve their differences? The barons will claim that the king is an unjust tyrant, and thus not their rightful lord and so take up arms against him until they can get concessions or replace him. The king will claim that they are wrongfully rebelling against his just and rightful rule, and so take (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barons%27_War) up (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_War) arms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_revolutions_and_rebellions#1000.E2.80.9314 99) against them until he can get them to simmer down.

I might be totally off base here, but my 'feeling' when reading the GPC was that like Arthur, Uther didn't have the allegiance of everyone from the start. The embassy to Lindsey, for example, hinted to me that while Uther is the High King, there are his mighty 'vassals' (Duke of Lindsey, Duke of Cornwall) who have not done homage to him, and are, in effect, independent kings. Hence his need to trot out Excalibur to convince the Dukes that he is, in truth, the rightful High King and they'd better bend a knee, or else.

I also wouldn't put it past Gorlois that his 'rightful' Duchy would have been smaller than what it becomes under Uther. So, for example, he has annexed Jagent when no one was looking, and rather than going to war and kicking him back to Cornwall, Uther offers to acknowledge Gorlois' claim to Jagent, in return for Gorlois acknowledging Uther as his High King.

But that is just my take on it.

Thank you, Morien. Yeah, that's about as close as I can get, too. What was tripping me up there, is the fact that Gorlois has the title of "Duke". Whence did he get that title? Reading the GPC closely, on pg 36, we learn that "Twelve members of the Collegium are Uther’s vassals. At this time, he feels confident that he has the support of some non-Logres votes as well. Yet not all his vassals are loyal enough to automatically vote with him." Then: "The Duchy of Cornwall is ruled by a nobleman of Logres, the renowned Duke Gorlois. He was awarded with his title and position by Aurelius Ambrosius to defend that part of Britain from the Irish and Cornishmen. He rules over the lands of Tintagel, Devon, and Jagent."

So my understanding is that, at the time of this encounter, Uther is not yet the High King of all Britain, but is trying to drum up support for that vote. However he is the King of Logres and these are his vassals, although some of them are wavering or close to defiance. Through rebellion Gorlois might well become a petty king in his own right—by law. But that hasn't happened yet. He is still Uther's vassal already and the aforementioned map and gazeteer tells us the Duchy of Cornwall includes these three counties at the time of this encounter.

Sorry, guys. I'm just trying to be prepared if the question comes up. To all appearances, Gorlois is getting no concessions whatsoever—everything Uther offers is already Gorlois' by right. I guess there could be an implicit threat of the Duke being stripped of his lands and title if Uther is victorious in war—and, despite the Duke's superior numbers, the Excalibur factor makes this too risky. But in that instance I would still say the dialog between the two is confused. Sorry to be so pedantic. I think I'm going to have to put my own words in the mouth of king and duke. It even gets more murky in the movie when Merlin tells Arthur, "[The duke] has given something—now you must!" Yep, by the way the GPC lays things out, no concessions are made here, by either side, that I can see.

If Jagent were not part of Cornwall already, then all of this would make perfect sense. But that's not the way the map is drawn, or the Duchy described...

T.

Like implied in my previous reply, I would fudge it. Yes, Gorlois was made a Duke my Aurelius Ambrosius, BUT he hasn't given his oath of homage to Uther as the new King of Logres. Yes, Gorlois rules over Jagent, BUT he rules over it de facto, instead of de jure. I.e. it is not officially part of the Duchy of Cornwall yet, and Gorlois' claim to it is shaky ('The previous count was my 3rd cousin, and so it belongs to my family!'). So in exchange for Gorlois acknowledging Uther as his King and Liege Lord, Uther legitimizes Gorlois' annexation of Jagent, and ensures that the Duke retains his lands.

Thanks, Morien. I'll go with that.

Best,


T.

I might be totally off base here, but my 'feeling' when reading the GPC was that like Arthur, Uther didn't have the allegiance of everyone from the start.


Please see page 3 of the Pendragon Gamemaster Characters, "King Uther Pendragon"

Directed Traits
Mistrust (Gorlois) +5
Mistrust (Lindsey) +3
Trusting Ulfius (+5)

What am I missing?


1. That this is a dramatic moment and not the time to explain all the details of a peace settlement; :)

2. That a duke is a temporary position, serving at the pleasure of the king. From Book of BARONS:
Sir Gorlois, The Honorable Duke of Cornwall, Lord of Tintagel, Buckenham, Bosinet and Heddington; Sheriff of Cornwall

As will be explained in detail in the Book of KING UTHER, Gorlois does not rule over that frontier land of Cornwall that he holds. He is, however, obligated to defend it all, as that is exactly what a Duke does. He has the power to summon the barons in his territory to defend it against invasion, and he gets use of funds to double the size of his army.
If you place those named estates (Buckenham, Bosinet, etc.) you'll see that some are in Cornwall--those are all temporarily his, as the Duke; and some are not, but are elsewhere in Logres. Buckenham is actually Gorlois' ancestral estate. The other £300 of the holding are also all far from Cornwall.
So what Uther is really saying is "You can hold all of my lands not held by someone else from here to the sea, and I will also return your ancestral lands, and the lands to support your army."

BINGO!

Now, THAT I can understand! Thanks, Greg. Precisely the kind of thing I was hoping you'd chime in with. Can't wait for the BOOK OF BARONS!


Best,


T.