Log in

View Full Version : PK Mortality in Pendragon: What's your style?



Morien
01-22-2012, 06:33 PM
The recent threads in House Rules inspired me to ask this question from other GMs and players, as well as air some of my own experiences.

Obviously, the monsters and challenges the player knights encounter depend on the GM; one GM might have them meeting human foes preferentially, while another might put them against giants and dragons and redcaps. I find that this is probably the most important factor when it comes to PK mortality in Pendragon, as a 12d6 giant with skill 8 is much more deadly than a 5d6 knight with skill 15, in my experience. Not only can the giant oneshot a PK, but he is less likely to let the PK live after the PK loses consciousness.

Of course, the game styles of the game groups varies as well. Some groups enjoy living on the edge, where each battle that they come through alive is cause for celebration, enhanced by the knowledge that not everyone made it. Other groups like to follow their knights through their career, eventually growing old and passing down the family sword for their now-adult heirs. In the latter case, having your PK killed every other session pretty much hampers your long-term plans, and can lead to frustration, or nonchalance about your character, since he will be dead soon anyway. Why not go out with a bang, if you are unlikely to survive anyway? Again, to each his/her own.

As a GM, I am hesitant introducing monsters that can oneshot PKs. I know the dice well enough that especially when there is a long fight, at some point someone rolls poorly, and that might mean a red mist moment for the hapless knight. So I tend to use human opponents, who are much more likely to capture and ransom the unconscious PKs, and allow first aid to be used on them. Usually, this is enough to save the characters from the brink of death, thanks to the first aid rules.

Another thing is that I allow players to hold on to their Glory Points rather than spend them in Winter Phase, and use those stored Glory Points as Fate Points of sorts: expending a Glory Point gives you a success in your roll, and a failure for the opponent. Oftentimes this is used to avoid a critical hit from the enemy.

Still, the characters are mortal. The flipside of not going out of my way to introduce big monsters is that I am not fudging the dice when they do come down poorly for the PK (other than the Fate/Glory Point in above). And so far that has ended up happening for all PKs save for one, who retired out of active service, as the player wanted to shift characters.

Here is the list of the honored dead:
1) Sir Robert: died while trying to save Arthur from Camille's clutches (9d6 mace from a half-giant HURTS, especially if you get hit twice). Saxon first aid was not equal to reviving the mangled body.
2) Sir Garnock: died in a duel to the first blood... unfortunately for this doughty knight, he was already hurt (he was at 2/3 hitpoints, I seem to recall), and the first blood was a high damage critical. Still, there was some hope that first aid might save him, but alas, the Healer Lady character fumbled her first aid...
3) Sir Maelgore: died as he had lived... naked on a bed. Famously Lustful Pagan, who went out of his way to seduce anything in a skirt, and finally one of the husbands found out and ambushed the adulterous pair in flagrante, as it were. Alas, the other PKs didn't manage to cut through the husband's men-at-arms quickly enough, and thanks to lacking their healer, Sir Maelgore bled to death with failed First Aid rolls.
4) Sir Nidian: died while trying to save ladies from the King of Dolorous Women. Again, here there was first a couple of good hits, and then a critical, dropping Sir Nidian to minus hitpoints. As the Healer Lady character was one of the ladies in need of rescuing, the First Aid skills of his fellow knights were not up to the task, and Sir Nidian perished.

So, in three of those cases, it came down to First Aid. There had been a couple of close calls before (I seem to recall Sir Nidian hovering at death's door at least once before), but then the dice were favorable. Also in three of those cases (Robert, Garnock and Nidian), the knight in question had already been injured, and could have opted for surrender (although Passions did play a role in two of those fights). In Maelgore's case, the lack of armor was the issue (we don't follow the movie Excalibur in that :P ). Interestingly enough, in two of those cases, the absence of the Party Healer (the Lady character), proved significant.

What have been your experiences with PK mortality? What flavor of campaign are you running?

Skarpskytten
01-22-2012, 07:05 PM
Good topic!

I do it to the hilt. Almost, at least. I think I fudged about five die rolls in a whole campaign, all of them when young (25 or younger) PKs looked sure to die.

The result was 32 dead PKs on a whole Pendragon Great Campaign. Eight of those suffered what I would call "narrative deaths", though, characters that committed suicide, were killed by other PKs, or given "cool" deaths on the players request.

That leaves 24 characters killed for real. It would probably have been two or three more if I hadn't fudged the aforementioned die rolls. Thats in 93 gaming sessions, so one dead PK every four sessions or so.

Looking at the age of death, one third of those PKs died within five year of winning their spurs. Thus, PKs that made it to their 25 or 26 birthday had a good chance to live a long and successful life. Is this something other game masters has seen also?

I should add, that since I did run the campaign in a rather hard core style, I did have a number of rules:
1) Very few combats against high damage monsters.
2) Very few sessions with more than one dangerous combat.
3) No combat at all every fourth or so session.

Sir Pramalot
01-27-2012, 09:46 PM
In my campaign, all rolls are in the open and the results never fudged. Never.

In 11 years of game time in Uther Phase, 485 onwards, my group of 5 players has lost 6 PKs; 5 of them going down in one session vs a Redcap. The 6th succumbing just last weekend vs a Formorian giant. Despite evidence to the contrary my campaign is human-centric - as it should be in the non magic setting of Uther - with such creatures appearing very occasionally and with a solid, predetermined reason for doing so.

Coming into Pendragon I was expecting high causalities but TBH its not been like that. When death has occurred it has brought with it great dramatic effect. The guy who died last week was absolutely gutted. And the time when the entire party was carved up by the Redcap is still talked about like the stuff of epic legend.

Some of my players have half-heartedly suggested Fate points but I have never considered them. I don't want such moments watered down. In my earlier GMing days of AD&D etc I fudged rolls for to favour the PCs often, and in the end I found it did more harm than good. The PCs just became lazy and carefree. That never happens in my KAP sessions.

The beauty of letting the fates decide is just the sheer unpredictability. Re the recent PK death to the Formorian, 2 of my Pks engaged they thing as it crashed through the forest toward them. One PK was tank-like, 33 Hps down from 39, while the other was comparatively weak, 14 Hps down from 25. The weak guy fought defensively the whole time while the strong guy fought normally. On round 2 the giant overcame the weak guy's defence at which point we all thought he was dead but on a roll of 9d6 I managed a paltry 23. Subtracting his combined armour values of 20 left a scratch like 3hps of damage. In the next two rounds the strong guy lost both opposed rolls (and failed to get his shield in the way) vs blows of 39 and 40 (and another 5 for being thrown of his horse) and was toast.

Players also get accustomed to the system and know how to play it to their advantage. My PKs tend to go hell for leather when they're on full hit points, knowing that even a crit is not likely to kill them then switch to defensive fighting when they take a crit. My players also have a phrase which they use to identify the "safe" zone when they lose just enough HPs to take them unconscious but not enough to go below zero "the arms of Morpheus" they call it - down and out of combat but safe as long as someone survives. The worst scenario is being just above such a point; conscious but on 11 or so HPs. A solid hit then and you're a goner!

DarrenHill
02-03-2012, 08:36 PM
At Greg's request, Escador's post about Plot Points (and subsequent discussion) has been moved for more discussion here:
http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=1484.0

(If I knew how, I'd move it to the house rules section too - so dont be surprisied if it moves again! Posts wont be lost though.)

fuzzyref
02-04-2012, 11:35 AM
I ran a campaign that made it all the way through the Uther period and we ended up stopping at the beginning of the Anarchy period. We had our rolls out in the open. During that time I managed to kill 2 of them. But there were times that looked very grim for almost all of them.

I remember the water leapers almost took down 2 knights. They got nocked out of the boats and tried to swim to safety. The only thing that saved them was the fact that one of the other knights was actually a good swimmer and was able to dive in and save them.

There was also a battle against some Roman knights. One of the character's father had disappeared. They knew him to be dead, but the didn't know how or where he had died. As such, the PK never got the lucky/unusual item to start the game. They found someone that knew who had killed her father and where the person lived. There was a group of manors in the East of Salisbury/West of Silchester that was controlled by 3 roman knights. The PK's went to visit, actually made nice with the old Roman knight. But in the middle of the knight the 2 young knights decided to try to kill them in their sleep. Only one of the PK's had fallen asleep at the time but somehow the Roman managed to stab the pillow giving the Pk time to wake up and grab his sword. To be so close to killing him and miss. :'(

The three-eyed giant managed to do some serious damage to one PK. Then another PK sent him into negative hit points by fumbling the first aid roll! ;D (That actually became a mini-theme for the game as his PK never wanted first aid from that PK again. Of course it happened and every time it did, he ended up getting worse). It turned out to be the final blow.

The last death came at the very end during a feast. Only managed to kill one PK as one had almost died during the battle and was in the infirmary. One was off wooing and passed out. The other lucked out with their rolls. (Don't want to go into too much detail as this may spoil a campaign 8) )

I have a feeling that if we had managed to get into the Anarchy Period the death rate would have increased because they would not have wanted to pay tribute to the saxons which would have given many more options to increase the danger that they were going to be introduced to.

Greg Stafford
02-04-2012, 07:33 PM
What have been your experiences with PK mortality? What flavor of campaign are you running?

I dug up some dusty files from storage, but (so far) have semicomplete data from one of them.
When I GM
I insist that all character sheets remain at my place, where we play
With this system no one has ever lost, forgotten or misplaced their character!
When a PK is lost, he is solemnly placed in the DEAD file.

After overcoming a bout of deep nostalgia that was provoked by these artifacts
I assembled some preliminary data, concentrating on mortality
This was my Berkeley Campaign, which is still online (links on KAP site)
Because we relocated we had to chop it short by 20 years, but we did meet for the final battles.
So it's a 65 year campaign. ;)
We had four regular players, Fergie, Wayne Aaron and Suzanne; two players in long enough to count, Jim and David; and 11 guests who were present one or two times. The last 11 were in the ALIVE folder, and are not counted in this survey. I also do not count the lady "PKs" (ha ha) I DO count two who were mad, lost forever.
In the end I had 43 player knights for the campaign. All of them died. 100%. I remember a PK who was so old and weak he was tied onto his horse for Camlann. The other 50 year old had retired but was vigorous. Here are their game life-spans.
One year. 13
Two. 6
three. 2
four. 5
five. 0
six. 2
seven, eight, nine. 0
ten. 4
eleven, twelve. 0
thirteen. 1
fifteen. 3
seventeen. 1
eighteen. 2
twenty. 1
forty+. 3

If I can bear the dust of my storehouse I will try to find my other files, and sit down with my database wife to find out more.

Skarpskytten
02-04-2012, 08:25 PM
I dug up some dusty files from storage, but (so far) have semicomplete data from one of them.
When I GM
I insist that all character sheets remain at my place, where we play
With this system no one has ever lost, forgotten or misplaced their character!
When a PK is lost, he is solemnly placed in the DEAD file.

After overcoming a bout of deep nostalgia that was provoked by these artifacts
I assembled some preliminary data, concentrating on mortality
This was my Berkeley Campaign, which is still online (links on KAP site)
Because we relocated we had to chop it short by 20 years, but we did meet for the final battles.
So it's a 65 year campaign. ;)
We had four regular players, Fergie, Wayne Aaron and Suzanne; two players in long enough to count, Jim and David; and 11 guests who were present one or two times. The last 11 were in the ALIVE folder, and are not counted in this survey. I also do not count the lady "PKs" (ha ha) I DO count two who were mad, lost forever.
In the end I had 43 player knights for the campaign. All of them died. 100%. I remember a PK who was so old and weak he was tied onto his horse for Camlann. The other 50 year old had retired but was vigorous. Here are their game life-spans.
One year. 13
Two. 6
three. 2
four. 5
five. 0
six. 2
seven, eight, nine. 0
ten. 4
eleven, twelve. 0
thirteen. 1
fifteen. 3
seventeen. 1
eighteen. 2
twenty. 1
forty+. 3

If I can bear the dust of my storehouse I will try to find my other files, and sit down with my database wife to find out more.


Well, this seems to fit rather well with my (lesser) experience: A PK that lives to see his 25 or 26 years of age, has very good chances to live a long and happy life. Those first five years are really though to survive.

Morien
02-04-2012, 09:36 PM
Lets see now... My timeline is seriously compromised by the fact that we have not played nearly the whole campaign, quite far from it, actually, and that the first generation suffered a 'plot death' at Badon Hill after having had a bit of plot immunity along the way. (Also we play via internet, so I usually get the character sheets after each winter phase, but have not bothered to get them after the character has died. I should ask for those versions, too...)

But of the current, post-Badon Generation...

1st Characters (Started 526 AD, but we had a 3v time skip due to a sojourn into Faerie):
Sir Garnock: Died at the age of 26, Glory 7000+
Sir Robert: Died at the age of 21 (but was knighted at 18 as a 'prodigy' to allow the player to play his first character's son during the Roman War, so he was actually game-equivalent to a 24 year old knight), Glory 6000+

2nd Characters (531+ AD):
Sir Maelgore: Died at the age of 24, Glory 3000+.
Sir Nidian: Died at the age of 26, Glory almost 8000.

This confirms a pattern that I sorta knew about already; in our campaign, the starting knights seldom go against really bad enemies, but mostly face their opposites, other young knights. It is when the PK is starting to close in on that 8000 Glory mark that they start looking to make a name for themselves to qualify into the Round Table, and hence seek out harder opponents/quests. So in our campaign, the mortality spike comes around a few years into the game, rather than straight at the beginning.

That does remind me of a conversation we had as the new characters were being introduced... That if you are starting a new character, in principle, you should be able to take MORE risks, as you have less (character development-wise) to lose if you snuff it in your first quest. Have you found this to be the case? Might this explain the first-year-death spike?

The other explination that I am thinking about is if you tend to have the new guys squaring against opponents 'balanced' against the older, more experienced characters? By which I mean that if the 'newbie PKs' are fighting against the same Skill 20 veteran NPKs that the veteran PKs are facing, then it is no wonder if they are paying a disproportional share of the butcher's bill. Another cause might be a difference in armor/wealth? At least we have found that the older characters have had more time to get better equipment (i.e. armor) than the new characters. So the new, younger characters tend to have the disadvantages of lower skills and lower protection value, which naturally would translate to a higher death ratio if the enemies are the same.

oaktree
02-26-2012, 03:16 AM
I'll toss in some additional data from a campaign I am a player in (not the GM).

At 520 in what is roughly a standard GPC run. We started with three brother PKs (21, 18, 15 years of age) and three players.

The eldest three knights (one of each players) were in the wrong room at St Alban's and were poisoned. However, one got a GM pass on a giant-inflicted kill shot at an earlier point. And a second might have (not my PK).

We have had four knights killed in battle since then. One banneretcy in Silchester has been changing hands on close to an annual basis.

And this draws less comment in our group then how quickly the childbirth tables have been taking out wives.