Been a while since I posted here, but I've finally started playing the GPC and a recent blog ramble (http://hubcap-reloaded.livejournal.com/381248.html") could benefit from some Pendragon experts. :-)

To summarise; my players went on the naval raids in Year 487. I used the Book of Armies "Tribal Saxons (Defending)" to roll random foes. The first few fights were easy, but on the first 2-to-1 outnumbered enemy they rolled10 - Frothing Mad Warriors, who promptly all got their passion. The fight was a bloodbath - in one round two knights were Major Wounded and KOed, one was dead and the fourth had to give up two previously captured prisoners in a swap to rescue his live friends. The only plus side is that the dead character was a backup - the main character having left the session due to a bad passion roll .

There was, however, a slight issue as we packed up to end. It turned out my girlfriend Ailsa had forgotten something which could have swung the fight. Her character possesses a religious artifact, a Tooth of Saint Germanus, which forces Germanic Pagans (i.e. Saxons) to flee. She got it at character gen, hadn't used it since and forgot about it in the heat of combat."Oh, well," she said, "I needed to make a Love (God) roll to use it and I probably wouldn't have passed it..." Roll. Pass. Bollocks.

Normally I wouldn't entertain a "do-over" just because player characters died. Pendragon in particular is a purposefully brutal game with a pre-built escape clause for dead characters - play your son/brother/cousin or even daughter/sister and continue the family name - and I think that the threat of player death hanging over combat makes the whole thing a lot more exciting.

Still, Ailsa forgot something that would be astoundingly important to her character - especially as he is played as studiously religous - and activated, average rolls would see her chasing off three of the eight saxons that attacked them. With that setup it would still have been tough, but it would have been a heck of a fairer fight and might have nabbed more glory. Crucially, they might not have taken two Major Wounds and those apply permanent penalties - Ailsa and Dave each lost a permanent stat point, a steep penalty for forgetting something OOC.

Of course, doing the combat again would be a slight challenge. Too much has occurred afterwards around Sir Albanus' death so I probably wouldn't want to remove it - And in any case, if his two foes remain he'd probably not be able to do anything different. But Dave and Ailsa could probably dodge their major wound, and with that comes glory and, if they pressed on, potentially more glory and ransoms. (The surviving player got one more fight and another £6 in plunder - Dave and Ailsa could potentially up that sum if they'd done better.) As a more ideological thing, going back after the fact to re-run an even is not something you want there to be a precedent for in case a day, week or month after something happens a player expects you to undo everything because, oh yeah, I actually own a spare horse so I could have ridden out on time.

I am interested in what you guys think I should do. Do I just leave the game as is and press on? Do I give the chance to undo what has come about through a mistake this one time?

Press on. Not your fault a player forgot something on their character sheet. The player-knights will have plenty of opportunities to accrue Glory and recover from their Major Wounds later in the GPC.

We've all suffered an incident like this at some point.

My method for this particular case would be:
Tell the players that this is a special occasion, and if they want the do-over, you'll allow it as follows:
* Ailsa used the Tooth at the last possible moment, when they were about to die, and so they badly beaten but the blows were turned at the last moment.
* Thus, everything else that happened, happened.
* Also, the tooth was smashed from her hands and is gone.
* Optionally: the players characters were captured and ransomed - thus the players are now in debt to whoever paid their ransom, or their bodies were retrieved by someone who healed them, and they are now in that person's debt.

Explain all this to the players before they decide whether to accept the do-over. They may decide that they aren't that cut up about being dead.

If they accept, this preserves the events of the year - any npcs who died still died, any major wounds players suffered are still there. But they are alive and continue on. It also sets the precedent: the players know if something like this happens again, they *might* get a do-over, it won't be free.

We've all suffered an incident like this at some point.

My method for this particular case would be:
Tell the players that this is a special occasion, and if they want the do-over, you'll allow it as follows:
* Ailsa used the Tooth at the last possible moment, when they were about to die, and so they badly beaten but the blows were turned at the last moment.
* Thus, everything else that happened, happened.
* Also, the tooth was smashed from her hands and is gone.
* Optionally: the players characters were captured and ransomed - thus the players are now in debt to whoever paid their ransom, or their bodies were retrieved by someone who healed them, and they are now in that person's debt.

Explain all this to the players before they decide whether to accept the do-over. They may decide that they aren't that cut up about being dead.

If they accept, this preserves the events of the year - any npcs who died still died, any major wounds players suffered are still there. But they are alive and continue on. It also sets the precedent: the players know if something like this happens again, they *might* get a do-over, it won't be free.


See, the main thing that makes this not much use is that about the last thing they really care about is the dead PC. It was Matthew's secondary character who he hadn't played before - and in game, they have actually ran with his death quite well. It might be different if it was a character they'd ivnested much time in but even after three session, I think most of them would sigh and take a character death. If I was allowing them to roll for Saxons retreating I would specifically not pick the two who killed that PC, I think.

They also already did effectively get captured after their defeat (with just one person upright vs 8 saxon warriors, the only other option was TPK) but, through the possession of previous prisoners, had a bargaining chip to escape with. It would be different if it had been a true TPK, whcih seem sto be what you're assuming (perhaps I didn't explain it well - I am known for my walls of text when I write! ;-) )

It's more the major wounds that bother me. Regaining stat points is possible but slow, and two players (not just the one who forgot about the tooth!) now have a permanent loss because of this incident. It's also not just a random knight with this object but one with a strong religious bent - high Religion (Roman), religious traits all doing well and a background that emphasises a strong connectino to the church. The player forgetting doesn't surprise me - my girlfriend has a terrible memory and there's enough little details ont he Pendragon character sheet to lose your randomly given magic item - but I struggle to believe that Sir Rhodri would seriously not have this tooth out and be praying in this situation. If it had been one of the other two christian knights, who aren't serious about their religion (and I'd struggle to believe have Love (God) ) then I'd not be having this issue.

(As an aside, I think we might need to ntoe the presence of the tooth and similar artifacts on the front page of the character sheet. On the abck with other equipment there's always going to be a risk it gets forgotten about, especially when it's handed out randomyl at character gen ratehr than acquired in-play.)

They also already did effectively get captured after their defeat (with just one person upright vs 8 saxon warriors, the only other option was TPK) but, through the possession of previous prisoners, had a bargaining chip to escape with. It would be different if it had been a true TPK, whcih seem sto be what you're assuming (perhaps I didn't explain it well - I am known for my walls of text when I write! ;-) )

It wasn't your fault - I was catching up on a lot of posts and didn't read yours as well as I should have.


It's more the major wounds that bother me. Regaining stat points is possible but slow, and two players (not just the one who forgot about the tooth!) now have a permanent loss because of this incident.

I wouldn't worry about this, as long as you applied the major wound roll properly: a major wound only causes the lose of one point.
Just to be clear (it's a commonly misread rule): there are two aging roll tables: the one roll 2d6 on, which can give 0-4 stat points lost, and the statistics loss table, which is a d6 roll where 1-5 = a stat.
With a major wound, you don't roll on the 2d6 table. You just roll once on the statistics loss table, to find which stat you lose a single point from.

Players do get upset at losing a stat point, but they can recover that with a single winter phase. Given that a character might be playable for 20 or 30 years, assuming they live long enough, a major wound is really a minor matter. It stings at the time, but makes little real difference over the long haul.


It's also not just a random knight with this object but one with a strong religious bent - high Religion (Roman), religious traits all doing well and a background that emphasises a strong connectino to the church. The player forgetting doesn't surprise me - my girlfriend has a terrible memory and there's enough little details ont he Pendragon character sheet to lose your randomly given magic item - but I struggle to believe that Sir Rhodri would seriously not have this tooth out and be praying in this situation. If it had been one of the other two christian knights, who aren't serious about their religion (and I'd struggle to believe have Love (God) ) then I'd not be having this issue.

I agree with that. It's not fair to punish a player for forgetting something their character would never forget. There's no easy way around it though.
If they dont care about the dead PC, then I'd just chalk it up to experience, and make a point of reminding the player about the item if they are in a similar position again.

I wouldn't worry about this, as long as you applied the major wound roll properly: a major wound only causes the lose of one point.
Just to be clear (it's a commonly misread rule): there are two aging roll tables: the one roll 2d6 on, which can give 0-4 stat points lost, and the statistics loss table, which is a d6 roll where 1-5 = a stat.
With a major wound, you don't roll on the 2d6 table. You just roll once on the statistics loss table, to find which stat you lose a single point from.

Yeah, we only took one point off them - I think it was DEX from one and STR from another, which I put down to broken limbs.


Players do get upset at losing a stat point, but they can recover that with a single winter phase. Given that a character might be playable for 20 or 30 years, assuming they live long enough, a major wound is really a minor matter. It stings at the time, but makes little real difference over the long haul.

I suppose with only a few sessions perspective, it may look worse than it is. As you say, it's healable in one session and the knock-on effect isn't necesarilly that bad if you don't heal it straight away. (Unless you're right on the threshold of a biggie like Damage)


I agree with that. It's not fair to punish a player for forgetting something their character would never forget. There's no easy way around it though.
If they dont care about the dead PC, then I'd just chalk it up to experience, and make a point of reminding the player about the item if they are in a similar position again.

I strongly suspect they'll join the Frankland invasion in 488. I'm going to have to write a post-it note on my GM screen that says THE TOOTH! THE TOOTH! THE TOOTH! </dune> :-)

George,

As I said on facebook, use the 'mistake' as a crisis of faith. Why didn't the amulet work? It didn't protect them. Did they offend God? Do they need to apease him? A pilgrimage perhaps? If Sir Rhodri hasn't got a religious bonus, perhaps he will need to get one for the amulet to work. Perhaps they have to have a certain religious Tratit at 16? Carry out some quest? A service for the church? You have the potential for something truly unique in the story of your knights. Use it.

Another possibility...

PC with tooth has a dream - he can use the tooth to reverse the effect of the major wound (thus negate the stat loss) BUT must then convert 10 pagans per person so healed before the tooth will work again.

Or something else of that nature.

Knight w/ tooth + those healed must regain a christian artifact and give it to X (insert christian dude here). Or perform some other quest.

Let the tooth be useful in this situation, but give it a cost that will make them pause and think "is this worth it?"

Have fun!

OR...the PC with the tooth forgot it back at camp that morning and didn't have it at the actual combat.

One thing I'm considering is that while the object in question was known to be a saint's tooth, that doesn't mean the PC knew that it was an item with an actual explosive reaction. It may just be a curious or good luck charm to them - would they have thought to pull it out mid-fight? Essentially, the PC didn't use the power because they didn't know it existed.

Perhaps next time they are outnumbered the PC will be more likely to make a final prayer in case they do not make it alive - and maybe the magic of the tooth will then become known to them...

Speaking to my players both in person and online, all of them were fine with just carrying on as is. I think they'd feel differently if there'd been more party deaths or if we'd worked out earlier: but everyone decided that they'd rather preserve the suspension of disbelief and carry on.

Everyone seemed to feel it actually added to their characters to have this failure of sorts.

They all had a much better time this week in 488 in the battle of Bayeux, especially the tooth-wielding knight Sir Rhodri took it out and prayed when they were once again surrounded two to one in a skirmish in the forests nearby.... and rolled a fumble on Love (God) , which I ruled meant he ran off overpowered by a religious vision. The group slew the Frankish infantry who had ambushed them and one managed to critically succeed in their Hunt check, finding Sir Rhodri babbling about stigmata and claiming he had received a vision of the Holy Spirit.

Rather than take Rhodri out of play we treated him as having gone a bit unhinged by his religious experience. When the gates of Bayeux started to fall he lead the charge, brandished his tooth, prayed... and two of the five enemies before the players ran in fear from the crazy man. There then followed a storming Book of Battle-powered battle in which they ran down a variety of Franks, pushing into the "enemy camp" (the center of the city) before the battle was ending and thusly getting an outrageous amount of loot.

Their failure last time definitely added to this story - not only did it make the success the sweeter, but the story of the tooth was far more interesting for it. They definitely treated the two-to-one battle (and the later run in with French Men-At-Arms with their Hate (Britons) passions) differently for knowing what the stakes were.

There's a bit more written about it on my campaign wiki entry for 488 (http://kingarthurpendragon.wikia.com/wiki/488) if you wish to know.

Thanks again for your opinions and thoughts.

That's great! Your players have made this into something memorable that they will hopefully remember and cherish for a long time. There is a lot of mileage here with the Tooth and its importance to Sir Rodhri. I really enjoy reading about their exploits.

That's great! Your players have made this into something memorable that they will hopefully remember and cherish for a long time. There is a lot of mileage here with the Tooth and its importance to Sir Rodhri. I really enjoy reading about their exploits.


Glad someone is enjoying our daft little reports! Now I have to start thinking about what criteria to apply to marrying the NPC heiresses that they've been chasing... :-)

Glad someone is enjoying our daft little reports! Now I have to start thinking about what criteria to apply to marrying the NPC heiresses that they've been chasing... :-)

That is easy--the permission of her warden.

Glad someone is enjoying our daft little reports! Now I have to start thinking about what criteria to apply to marrying the NPC heiresses that they've been chasing... :-)

That is easy--the permission of her warden.


They did pretty fabulously at Bayeux, combining religious miracles with a stomping military victory, so I'm inclined to let the one after Gwiona get his 2 manors. (After all, a good marriage roll could net that anyway.) Lady Adwen and her insta-bannaret dowry is probably going to require more than 2500 glory to swing, but I'm not sure what in the next few years could occur which might throw the right kind of glory his way. Then there's Rhodri and Lady Jenna, where he is oblivious to the fact she has taken a shine to him...

....but this is all going very OT. ;-)