Spun off from a passing reference in my last post....

Several rich heiresses are provided in the 5th Ed Pendragon rulebook as NPCs to attempt to marry - in some ways, the ultimate prizes to be obtained in the game. Lady Adwen comes with no fewer than 6 manors, Lady Indeg has an increased autonomy which makes her a valuable catch and the mostly unobtainable Lady Jenna is dangled in front of all as the insta-nobility prize.

But one must roleplay out winning them and, depending on lady and your personal style, the player needs to have both charmed the lady and the Earl of Salisbury to achieve this. (By the book it's only Lady indeg whose permission you need but I know some posters here prefer their marriage a little less medieval.) They're pretty hefty prizes to be won so shouldn't just be handed out because the player takes a fancy to it - especially because keeping the lady unmarried financially benefits the Earl! - but one doesn't want to be stingy and have them totally unobtainable to players.

Therefore - how many of you have dealt with PCs marrying or trying to marry these ladies in your games? What criteria have you seen used to hand these out? What sorts of gifts and glory do you think are necessary to equate to marrying one of the heiresses?

In my own game, the battle of Bayeux in 488 was a rollicking Glory smash for them - over 300 Glory netter in Frank-slaying - which pushed on the knight sinto the 2500 or so glory category. He's already charmed Lady Gwiona, impressed with his chivalrous traits and has been generous with gifts to both the lady and the Earl. as Gwiona isn't really in demand (being cursed and all) it seemed to me that Gwiona might be in his very near future.

This also matches up with me letting Sir Lycus (who the knights have clashed with more than once) marry Lady Elaine after Lycus impressed with his efforts on the Saxon naval raids.

However, one of the others is trying to woo Adwen. Now he's also got a nice chunk of glory from Frankland - he was unit commander in the battle and managed to hold his own when fighting three at a time - but I don't think getting six manors at 2500 glory is the right ballpark. I'm probably going to make him work a good few years more for that, perhaps see if he can impress in the next couple of battles.

Finally one of my knights is... well, he's not really courting Lady Jenna because he's playing a super-chaste knight who spent a lot of time amongst monks and doesn't really understand women. However, he has formed a friendship with Lady Jenna and is amusingly oblivious to her feeligns for him. I can't see ever letting the PC get married to her... but the situation has given some interesting scenes so far, and after St Albans who knows what might happen?

2500 Glory is nothing! :P But then again, I am a very stingy GM when it comes to marrying into manors (I never use the marriage table in the rulebook).

Now Gwiona's suitor might be getting close... I'd hold out for at least 3000+, and have the Earl hint that some more heroics for the Earl's benefit, and the marriage would have his blessing. A quest or two, perhaps?

6 manors? No way. That will instantly make the knight one of the biggest single landowners in Salisbury (in our campaign at least). In Our Campaign, the Earl would be looking for someone in his early-mid thirties, a proven leader of men, a veteran of many campaigns, with Glory well in excess of 4000. I'd say 6000 at least, although allowances can be made if they have saved the Earl's life or similar very personally important heroics for the Earl.

Lady Jenna is well out of range for normal knights; she is pretty much earmarked to marry within her class to an Earl or perhaps even a Duke. Of course, Anarchy might offer a chance to an unscrupulous knight...

In short, I think your gut feeling is pretty close to mine, although I think I would be even more stingy than you. But that is the style of game we play. Your Manor Might Vary. :)

If you thumb through all of the supplements which have adventures to take the Knights on, just about every one of them come equipped with one (or more) marriage worthy women who could be courted. The Knight would probably have to spend some time in a foreign court to obtain the prize, but they are there nonetheless.

2500 Glory is nothing! :P But then again, I am a very stingy GM when it comes to marrying into manors (I never use the marriage table in the rulebook).

A related aside: I bought 5.1 edition as a PDF but never really read or printed much out since I was under the impression it was mostlya bug-fix and that the errata would mostly do my 5th Ed book right. However, only a week or two after starting did I discover the marriage table in 5.1 is notably different, in particular with more entries but making getting further manors somethign you can only do by acquiring bonuses.

The 5.1 table would probably do you right since it focuses on dowries of money. I let the one player who had already got married keep his manor but for future wives I'm going to try using the 5.1 table, which will keep gaining manors much rarer.

A related aside: I bought 5.1 edition as a PDF but never really read or printed much out since I was under the impression it was mostlya bug-fix and that the errata would mostly do my 5th Ed book right. However, only a week or two after starting did I discover the marriage table in 5.1 is notably different, in particular with more entries but making getting further manors somethign you can only do by acquiring bonuses.
I don't have 5.1 but would be very interested in seeing this chart.

Can it be posted?

A related aside: I bought 5.1 edition as a PDF but never really read or printed much out since I was under the impression it was mostlya bug-fix and that the errata would mostly do my 5th Ed book right. However, only a week or two after starting did I discover the marriage table in 5.1 is notably different, in particular with more entries but making getting further manors somethign you can only do by acquiring bonuses.
I don't have 5.1 but would be very interested in seeing this chart.

Can it be posted?


I'll get it on my site promptly
I have worked out a much more detailed, and more fun, that will be in the Book of ENTOURAGE
There is a marriage table for knights getting a "normal wife"
and another for ladies getting a similar puppet "normal"
But if 5.1 is different, wer will post it

A related aside: I bought 5.1 edition as a PDF but never really read or printed much out since I was under the impression it was mostlya bug-fix and that the errata would mostly do my 5th Ed book right. However, only a week or two after starting did I discover the marriage table in 5.1 is notably different, in particular with more entries but making getting further manors somethign you can only do by acquiring bonuses.
I don't have 5.1 but would be very interested in seeing this chart.

Can it be posted?


I'll get it on my site promptly
this is NOT me nagging to get it on the site, but rather a question.

Where will it be on the site? In the Family section or someplace else?
This way we know where to look (grin)

"What's New" is always a good start









A related aside: I bought 5.1 edition as a PDF but never really read or printed much out since I was under the impression it was mostlya bug-fix and that the errata would mostly do my 5th Ed book right. However, only a week or two after starting did I discover the marriage table in 5.1 is notably different, in particular with more entries but making getting further manors somethign you can only do by acquiring bonuses.
I don't have 5.1 but would be very interested in seeing this chart.

Can it be posted?


I'll get it on my site promptly
this is NOT me nagging to get it on the site, but rather a question.

Where will it be on the site? In the Family section or someplace else?
This way we know where to look (grin)

Following this thread, my last session has the two courting players explicitly ask the lord "What do you want us to do?"

To the played after Lady Gwiona, he was told that in a year or two's time he may well be able to marry her as long as he keeps up good service. He's pushing 3000 glory as of the end of this year and did well for Logres in Cantref Gwaelod, our 489 adventure - I've basically told him "Be badass in the saxon fighting next year and it's possible"

Things are a little tougher for the Adwen-lover, but he's also pretty understanding about it - "I was just looking for someone young and pretty and didn't realise she had quite so much land." The Earl outright said that he can't make people under thirty bannerets randomly and that it's going to take a lot more before he hands her over. Sir Elad seems to have taken this on the chin and will hopefully see him doing risky but glorious things in the future as he chases Adwen's hand.... and her huge tracts of land.

I have worked out a much more detailed, and more fun, that will be in the Book of ENTOURAGE

Such a heartless tease! Will we see any of these much-rumored BOOKS in 2012? Let's see, erm:

BOOK OF THE BARON
BOOK OF ENTOURAGE
BOOK OF THE WARLORD
BOOK OF THE STEWARD
BOOK OF KING UTHER PENDRAGON
BOOK OF BATTLE (update)

Have I forgotten any?


T.

Some of you may think me soft for allowing both knights to marry their beloved after 490.

However, the one who wanted to marry Lady Awden did manage to one-hit King Octa, with a very impressive critical that took the king off his horse and to minus hit points, then present the magical axe as a prize to King Uther.... so I feel it may qualify as an unusual display of heroism. :-)

I have worked out a much more detailed, and more fun, that will be in the Book of ENTOURAGE
There is a marriage table for knights getting a "normal wife"
and another for ladies getting a similar puppet "normal"
But if 5.1 is different, wer will post it


As long as you are making more detailed marriage tables, could you please make it possible for a knight to take a minus on the wealth roll to seek a wife who has other characteristics?

After all, a Prudent knight may wish to avoid the crowds around the heiresses with huge tracts of land, and court instead the wallflower in the corner with the impressive Stewardship or First Aid/Chiurgery scores. Jane Austen, anyone?

Thank you.

As long as you are making more detailed marriage tables, could you please make it possible for a knight to take a minus on the wealth roll to seek a wife who has other characteristics?
I am not sure what you mean

After all, a Prudent knight may wish to avoid the crowds around the heiresses with huge tracts of land, and court instead the wallflower in the corner with the impressive Stewardship or First Aid/Chiurgery scores. Jane Austen, anyone?
Is that prevented now?

As long as you are making more detailed marriage tables, could you please make it possible for a knight to take a minus on the wealth roll to seek a wife who has other characteristics?
I am not sure what you mean


Not Gideon13 but I think what he's thinking about is something like: The higher up the table you roll, then you get more "wife points" to spend. Wife points can buy dowry; manors; wifely skills; etc.

So you might spend them all on manors and dowry to get a rich landholder; you might ignore manors and spend it on skills so you get a woman who comes with a starting stewardship/first aid/etc of some note; of you might totally dump cash to get a poor but skilled woman.

I can see something similar applied to wife ages as well - "You can make her richer but she'll become older and give you less children."

If that seems to give players too much control, perhaps let the player roll for number of points and then let the GM allocate them, perhaps with some sort of way for the player to tilt it slightly. (So he can try to ask his lord for a richer wife over a skilled one, but the GM ultimately has final call.)

Yes, GQuail is right, that's exactly what I meant.

The idea is that spending more time courting currently lets you roll "better" on the wife table, but "better" could be in terms of skills or other characteristics, not just wealth. If a PK can choose between his NPC wife's being unusually wealthy and unusually good at healing, or intrigue, or Faerie Lore, or even just skipping the courting and starting working on heirs ASAP, doesn't that enrich the game and add to Pendragon's philosophy of "You're a knight/family member/member of society, now what sort of person will you be"?