I just got my hands on Book of Knights and Ladies. It is very nice, and a delight to puruse.

However, my joy faded somewhat when I tried to figure out how I was going to use it with the GPC.

The "hook" that draws all the knights together throughout the "Uther" and "Anarchy" periods is their common vassalage to the Earl of Salsbury. It's not until they've done a few select tasks for the Earl or Merlin that they really end up gelling as a "group" that would regularly adventure together.

Looking at Book of K&L, there's tons of places to come from, and several interesting cultures to be. But I just don't see how that's supposed to work with the early parts of the GPC. For example, how or why would: a Roman from London, a Cymri from Cornwall, a Saxon from Sussex, and an Irish from who-knows-where ever form a "group" and perform the sorts of actions listed out in the "Uther" section of the GPC?

Is Book of K&L only intended for "Boy King" and later time periods?

Thanks for any insight or descriptions of how it worked out in your campaigns.

There are any number of reasons why knights from all over might 'work' for Earl Salisbury. Some might have old family ties and be distant nephews in some way. Fostering in a powerful relation's court was common. These squires might then stay on as knights in the Earl's retinue. Others might be mercenary knights that the Earl hired on during troubling times. He liked them and decided to keep them on...

The Saxon would be a problem as they aren't really knights yet and are generally hostile, but for any other Cymric or other knight, it shouldn't be too hard to figure out a reason why they are in Salisbury. Just start them as household knights, not vassals, and come up with some reason why they are there. Once they have a personal tie to the Earl (sworn fealty), they are like family.

NT

Eothar's right on. There's a great example of this kind of relationship in GAME OF THRONES:

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Theon_Greyjoy

Here's the heir to a House that was hostile to the King, and so he was effectively held as a hostage ward by the King's allies, the Starks. However, he grew up in their family and considered himself almost part of the family, being close to Robb, the heir to House Stark. Irishmen and Saxons might be a bit hard to work into a Salisbury court, but other background should be easy enough to incorporate. Just create a compelling reason for them to be there.

Best,


T.

When Uther and Aurelius invaded Britain, they did so from Brittany; perhaps, like William the Conqueror, they took on many mercenaries from other parts of the continent. Perhaps these mercenaries, once settled with manors, maintained their old culture, or have close enough ties with the homeland that every so often an errant cousin or younger son will join them to try and make his fortune.

Looking at Book of K&L, there's tons of places to come from, and several interesting cultures to be. But I just don't see how that's supposed to work with the early parts of the GPC. For example, how or why would: a Roman from London, a Cymri from Cornwall, a Saxon from Sussex, and an Irish from who-knows-where ever form a "group" and perform the sorts of actions listed out in the "Uther" section of the GPC?

Is Book of K&L only intended for "Boy King" and later time periods?


Earlier posts give some ideas for how to integrate various cultural backgrounds but I just want to say that BoK&L is a book of options and, as the GM, you are perfectly at liberty to discard or restrict those options if you choose.

The book already does this a bit via the 'friendly regions' table on p15 (so per your example, you wouldn't get an Irishman from who-knows-where in your Uther period game), but you can take it further than that if you want. My game is based in Lindsey, so my default position is to use a cut down set of entries drawn from the Logres (B) column of the Uther Period Homelands table on p16 - if I were starting a game in Salisbury I'd either get people to roll d6+4 on the Logres (C) column or come up with a special 'Salisbury' column of my own.

Regards
Luke

Exile is another reason that an "outsider" knight might be present in Salisbury.


T.

Table 2, Friendly Regions
is exactly what it says: stick to that and anyone can have found his way to Salisbury

The general instability of the Sword Age, the Spear Age
Where any man with the right equipment is a leader of the unarmed
and the champions among them are true lords: Warlords
In the War Days every man with a horse and armor wants to attach himself to a Great Lord
and the Great Lord will be alert to bring the best into his household

I have prepared an alternative to having everyone come from Salisbury as landed knights
It is GPC with a slightly different emphasis, where everyone is a cavalryman, not a knight
and are working to become permanent members of a lord's household--working to swear homage
whereupon they become knights
This is a perfect reason for why your man is there

and for Saxons and Picts: there are friendly lands for both of them in Logres, should your campaign take that approach

I have prepared an alternative to having everyone come from Salisbury as landed knights
It is GPC with a slightly different emphasis, where everyone is a cavalryman, not a knight
and are working to become permanent members of a lord's household--working to swear homage
whereupon they become knights
This is a perfect reason for why your man is there



Dear Greg,

I have been thinking about Pendragon for a long time, since I first bought the rules in 2006. And although I haven't ever played a game nor ran a campaign, I always mused with the idea of starting low and earning respect through effort. This idea of yours is just what I had chosen for an eventual campaign of mine, although I would have them start as sergeants or footsoldiers: just as long as it would be realistic that they could be doing errands for Earl Roderick that might earn them his attention and eventually their knighting.

I'd like to know if this is viable and if you have something written to this effect. Namely, I think I remember there were some minimum requirements to become a knight, which means that they'd have to train for several years until they could be deemed worthy. Are there tables for that in 5th edition? Or how could I adapt them from 4th, since the time frame could be different (I'd like to start as early as possible)?

Thank you.

I have prepared an alternative to having everyone come from Salisbury as landed knights
It is GPC with a slightly different emphasis, where everyone is a cavalryman, not a knight
and are working to become permanent members of a lord's household--working to swear homage
whereupon they become knights
This is a perfect reason for why your man is there

I'd like to know if this is viable and if you have something written to this effect.

not ready for print now, but it is not difficult. In my current campaign my wife is GM, and it was a good way to get a viable character.


Namely, I think I remember there were some minimum requirements to become a knight, which means that they'd have to train for several years until they could be deemed worthy. Are there tables for that in 5th edition? Or how could I adapt them from 4th, since the time frame could be different (I'd like to start as early as possible)?

No more
I did away with the test requirements
too artificial
K&L p 68 is my current preference

This is my only allusion to it


Setting Change: the Sword Age
This supplement brings to the foreground the fact that knights are still a new phenomenon during Uther’s reign. Most of this book is calculated to include more or equal numbers of cavalrymen than knights. This is the period when knights reveal their slight edge over cavalry. It is visible in the Casualty Tables and in the shares of loot that knights receive.
Gamemasters might wish to start all player characters as cavalrymen, competing for the laurels of true knighthood. Once a character is established (and the player has learned his way around the game), then the figure out his family.

I have more questions, actually. Suppose the players all start as footsoldiers, sergeants or cavalrymen or somewhat. Can they be non-nobles? If so, what would be the acceptable father's classes for such characters?

Or alternatively, can they be those classes and still be somewhat noble? I read in the 5th edition something that suggested squires are noble, but then here are things I don't understand. What is being noble after all?

I have more questions, actually. Suppose the players all start as footsoldiers, sergeants or cavalrymen or somewhat. Can they be non-nobles? If so, what would be the acceptable father's classes for such characters?

The discussion of Knighthood on p68 of BoK&L covers this - as does the boxed text at the bottom of p40.

Squires (or rather Esquires) are those members of noble families who don't end up as knights for whatever reason. They are most definitely nobles for the purposes of this topic - although their sons or grandsons may fall back into the commonality if the family is poor (for 'nobleman' values of poor).

Regards
Luke

Thank you,

I'd like to note I only have the books for rules and campaign. And given they were a recent investment, I don't have money for more now. So, I am sorry I asked a question that could be answered by Bo K&L, but I don't have that book.

And anyway, just wanted to be sure.

Ah OK, the topic has drifted somewhat from the thread title...

In brief, these are the qualifications for knighthood:

Blood
Age
Equipment
Training
Opportunity
Oath

Blood (ie being a member of a gently born family) only becomes a rigid requirement later in the campaign, although it is sufficiently helpful in achieving the 'Equipment', 'Training' and 'Opportunity' qualifications as to be pretty much a de facto requirement in the early days. However the key requirement is actually 'Opportunity' - there has to be an opening for you in a lord's following before you are permitted to swear your Oath and actually become a knight.

All the 'Age of the Sword' cavalrymen Greg is talking about are angling for an Opportunity to get their step and move up into the brotherhood of chivalry - if they don't ever get the Opportunity then they end their days as an Esquire (this is still a noble estate mind, but you are very much minor gentry).

Regards
Luke