I don't "get" the Aquitainians described in the Book of Knights and Ladies.

The first 2/3rds of their description makes them sound roughly like Saxons, then a Lancelot is mentioned, and the text suddenly pivots and begins describing them as soft, love-obsessed sophisticants. It's a little confusing.

I did some basic reading on the historical Visigoths, and I get the jist that they seem to be sojourning barbarians, with the reputation as the people that destroyed the Eternal City (ie sacked Rome). I'm not sure how they become the sophisticated pseudo-French/Italian lovers described in BoK&L.

Now, I realize that KAPendragon is more based on myth than history, plus some parts wholly made up, and I'm totally fine with that. But I'd like some sort of internally consistant reason as to where the Aquitainians came from. Of especial importance to me: how do I conceptualize and (as GM) present their sophistication such that they don't predate (and thus steal the thunder) from the PAX ARTHUR that is yet to come?

If the Aquitainians already have high culture, and already have Romance (or the generic equivalent), then Arthur is less special. This is doubly true if they merely self-generate it out of nowhere after being Visigoth barbarians immeadiately beforehand. If every barbarian tribe can just kindof do that, it stands to reason that it's happening all over Europe in parallel to Arthur.

(I give the Romans a pass on the sophistication-issue because they strike me more as "once great, now fallen" tragic relics of the past that don't have a homeland anymore. Also, the justification of their origins (ie Rome) is robustly built into the setting to help explain where they came from. The Aquitainians, on the other hand, both seem "new" and "ex nihilio".)

I want to get them to work, as I can see them as neat, and as way to possibly let players play a bit of Lancelot-like character early in the GPC (or at least provide foreshadowing). But it's not working for me. How do you work them in your games or describe their origins to your PCs?

I think Greg Stafford wrote somewhere here that the Aquitanians weren't meant to be readily playable (in the same way that Cymri, Irish, Saxons and Romans are) until 510 or 520 or something. I think it could still work, though; when Uther and Aurelius invaded Britain, they did so from Brittany, which is immediately north of Aquitaine. When Arthur won his throne, he did so only with the military assistance of the Aquitanians; close ties between Britain and Aquitaine could work even into the Uther and Anarchy.

The Aquitanians are thoroughly civilized barbarians. The Visigoths existed within the framework of Roman law; they served in Roman armies, were settled as Roman vassals, and, in the BoKL, adopted Roman terms of government (regulus) and Roman culture. They assimilated to some degree into Rome, albeit selectively. They did not come from nothing, but combined their own culture with the Roman culture they had lived under, and whose fragments they had inherited. It is purely coincidental that it happens to strongly resemble high medieval southern France ::)

Just because they are sophisticated and poetical and cultured doesn't also mean they're not a bunch of bastards. Just check out William IX (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_IX_of_Aquitaine), duke of Aquitaine (relevant!) in the late 11th century, and also quite the poet. (http://www.trobar.org/troubadours/coms_de_peiteu/) Most of his poems are about sleeping with other people's wives, or complaining about how difficult it is to sleep with other people's wives. He was excommunicated repeatedly, once for kidnapping the wife of his vassal (probably with her assistance) and openly having an affair with her. He was cultured, romantic, and also a huge son of a bitch; use that for what distinguishes the Aquitanians from the chivalric perfection of Arthur's court.

Seriously, read his poems. One is about pretending to be crazy so he can sleep with two ladies, and then has the poem sent to their husbands, one is him complaining that he doesn't know which woman he wants to sleep with, another is complaining that it's difficult to see his woman because of her "gardet con, and so forth.


Comrades, I have had so many bad receptions
that I cannot do without singing and grieving about it;
however, I don't want people to know my business in many things.

And I shall tell you my opinion about this:
I don't like a warded c___ nor a pond without fish,
nor boasting of base men, as if there weren't records of their actions.

Lord God, who are refuge and king of the world,
why didn't the first c___-warden drop dead?
Because there never was service, or watch, worse than that.

Therefore shall I tell you the Law of the C___,
as a man who's done badly and has been repaid worse:
if other things dwindle when you take of them, the c___ grows.

And he who will not believe my teachings,
let him go see by the wood, in a reservation:
for each tree people fell, two or three grow.

And when the wood is cut, it grows back thicker
and the owner doesn't miss his profit, nor his income:
one complains wrongly about the loss, if no harm is done.

It is wrong to complain about the loss, if no harm is done.

Oh my goodness I love this guy so much


You shall hear how much I fucked them:
a hundred and eighty-eight times,
so much that they almost broke my equipment
and my tool;
and I can't describe the aching, so much I was taken.

P.S. I forgot to mention that while his neighbor, Raymond IV of Toulouse was off winning Jerusalem in the First Crusade, William IX was busy snatching his lands. What a jackass. He shares my birthday :)

Per the RAW, Aquitanians are only available to players from the Boy King period onwards (see Friendly Regions table, p15 of BoK&L) and even then it's only a 5% chance if you are doing random chargen (rising to 10% once their exile starts). Regarding how they came to be, they are the most extreme of the 'romanised barbarian' cultures in terms of how far they have pivoted from their tribal roots but you see similar tropes in the other continental cultures in the second half of the book. They have to be that extreme given that they are the root stock for the 'French' knights in Arthurian lore, plus of course courtly love, troubadours and all that stuff.

Insofar as how they operate within the milieu of the game, they are intended to be the lover-not-a-fighter caricatures who bring their weird nancy-boy fashions to Logres after getting their arses thoroughly kicked by the Franks, causing a deal of resentment amongst honest British knights who can't be doing with their effete continental ways (although, granted, Lancelot is pretty good).

Regards
Luke

I'm not entirely sure that's the case, though I am trying not to read ahead in the GPC. In Mallory, the Aquitanians provided invaluable military aid to Arthur in the early years, and later they were hardly the only ones to indulge in romance.

I was channelling the 'honest British knights' in that last paragraph...

The Aquitanians can't really be blamed for the wild popularity of the Romantic fashions they introduce to Arthur's court, but that won't stop the resentful blaming from happening (IMG at least).

Regards
Luke

Great Thread!
I'm going to run through the list quickly


I did some basic reading on the historical Visigoths, and I get the jist that they seem to be sojourning barbarians, with the reputation as the people that destroyed the Eternal City (ie sacked Rome). I'm not sure how they become the sophisticated pseudo-French/Italian lovers described in BoK&L.

The same way that they did in history! Only waaaay quicker.
A ruling class takes over a superior civilization
They do their best to remain on top, while aping the Romans as best they can
and using the surviving Roman admin. as much as possible (i.e. Church)
Outside influences (i.e. soft effete Mediterranean) seeps in
The apes take to everything
and discover/create a polite way of boasting like a teen about their sexual exploits


Now, I realize that KAPendragon is more based on myth than history, plus some parts wholly made up, and I'm totally fine with that. But I'd like some sort of internally consistant reason as to where the Aquitainians came from. Of especial importance to me: how do I conceptualize and (as GM) present their sophistication such that they don't predate (and thus steal the thunder) from the PAX ARTHUR that is yet to come?

By not introducing the Romance until much later. They are the more barbaric guys earlier, including the kings who help Arthur.

[quote author=doorknobdeity link=topic=1555.msg12297#msg12297 date=1332204203]
Oh my goodness I love this guy so much
[quote]
Me too
I have not yet pegged who, by name, this is in the campaign
But I think this guy was a native Aquitanian, probably influenced by those crazy liberals in Occitania
and came to power after the Kings Bran and Bors were killed
(that is, when Arthur didn't help them out, like they had helped him)
When the boy princes were being protected by the LoL,
I mean Lady of the Lake
wherever they were they were certainly exposed to the Cock's Way
but in truth, they were indoctrinated into the actual Romantic principles of Love
which has persisted until these days
and int he West has replaced the old methods
of marriage for property

the girl kind

They have to be that extreme given that they are the root stock for the 'French' knights in Arthurian lore, plus of course courtly love, troubadours and all that stuff.

Cautiously here!
The Franks are the French!
:)

Insofar as how they operate within the milieu of the game, they are intended to be the lover-not-a-fighter caricatures who bring their weird nancy-boy fashions to Logres after getting their arses thoroughly kicked by the Franks, causing a deal of resentment amongst honest British knights who can't be doing with their effete continental ways (although, granted, Lancelot is pretty good).
[/quote]
Nicely said
especially because "there is always Lancelot"

It's not the way of the cock. Our boy Willy is a fan of the other c-word.