Hi, I think it would be nice if the book of battle could contain something for the non combat characters (ladies) to do during a battle. Perhaps a encounter table for people standing at the sidelines with opertunities to affekt the battles outcome by using first aid on wounded soldiers, avoiding enemies that have broken thru the lines and so on.

I think that would be great!
Also if there's a table about the squires and what i'd like to see inside this book would be a naval battle system. There's no naval battle during arthur's reign, but there were some during the reign of vortigern and before and it could be nice to simulate them :)

I would just like to see the Book of Battle in print, preferably in my hands while I'm reading it.

I want to thank everyone for the suggestions.
Even if I do not use them, your opinions and contributions are valuable to me in this.



Hi, I think it would be nice if the book of battle could contain something for the non combat characters (ladies) to do during a battle. Perhaps a encounter table for people standing at the sidelines with opertunities to affekt the battles outcome by using first aid on wounded soldiers, avoiding enemies that have broken thru the lines and so on.


There really isn't very much, as the retinue stay in camp or perhaps go somewhere to watch.
I will add something about what they do after the battle--i.e. where are the healers?
but it's complex enough to deal just with the combatants.

--Greg

I think that would be great!
Also if there's a table about the squires and what i'd like to see inside this book would be a naval battle system. There's no naval battle during arthur's reign, but there were some during the reign of vortigern and before and it could be nice to simulate them :)


This is a rare event. There are hardly any naval battles through the whole Middle Ages that are of interest, though Sluys is worth looking up.
Interesting idea, though.
I do not at this time plan to include this, although I can see how it might be easily adapted.
If everything else comes together this might be in, or if not, maybe an adaption presented on line or something..

--Greg

I would just like to see the Book of Battle in print, preferably in my hands while I'm reading it.


Me too.

I do not want to generate anxiety about this, but to keep people informed and at rest.
I have no deadline for this, and I want to do the best possible job here.

Status:
I am convinced that the system is finished and works.Several people have been going over my work to help smooth it out and point out gaps.
I will be polishing it and am now working on the best way to present the data.

Thanks to everyone for the interest!
Please feel free to keep making suggestions!

--Greg

I think that would be great!
Also if there's a table about the squires and what i'd like to see inside this book would be a naval battle system. There's no naval battle during arthur's reign, but there were some during the reign of vortigern and before and it could be nice to simulate them :)


This is a rare event. There are hardly any naval battles through the whole Middle Ages that are of interest, though Sluys is worth looking up.
Interesting idea, though.
I do not at this time plan to include this, although I can see how it might be easily adapted.
If everything else comes together this might be in, or if not, maybe an adaption presented on line or something..

--Greg



I know I talk a lot about my dear ALLITERATIVE MORTE ARTHURE, but it does have a very nice naval battle. Mordred takes over the country while Arthur is away fighting Rome, and sends warships to intercept Arthur's army on the way back.

http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/teams/allitfrm.htm At about line 3610. In fact, if you're doing a book all about battles, I'd recommend the whole book. It starts with the war with Rome, then progresses right to the war with Mordred; the book is about 70% fight scenes by volume.

Besides that, I'd like to have the opportunity to do the wonderfully dramatic things that knights do-- steal enemy banners, dramatic single combats that draw a collective "woah" from both sides, etc.

Good luck.

I know I talk a lot about my dear ALLITERATIVE MORTE ARTHURE, but it does have a very nice naval battle. Mordred takes over the country while Arthur is away fighting Rome, and sends warships to intercept Arthur's army on the way back.

http://www.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/teams/allitfrm.htm At about line 3610. In fact, if you're doing a book all about battles, I'd recommend the whole book. It starts with the war with Rome, then progresses right to the war with Mordred; the book is about 70% fight scenes by volume.



It's about time I read it all, instead of parts and about it.
So, I'm on it!
Thank you.




Besides that, I'd like to have the opportunity to do the wonderfully dramatic things that knights do-- steal enemy banners, dramatic single combats that draw a collective "woah" from both sides, etc.



Check to both those. And add the usual battle stuff: punch a hole through the enemy line and ransack their camp; hold the line against huge odds, adjust tactics to different enemies,
and unheroic too: the whole unit is stopped by a shower of arrows, the unit is blindsided (surprise!) by a unit "out of nowhere"

--Greg

Don't forget the option to rout the enemy, chase after them, ransack the camp and take hostages, then notice that your mens' absence from the battle has weakened the flank you were supposed to guard and therefore doomed the rest of your army just when victory seemed certain. My greed has screwed over entire parties before, but never an entire army.

Gotta say ...........
Not too excited to play a lady anywhere near a battle. I just really can not fathom how it could be fun. Sorry. :-\

Gotta say ...........
Not too excited to play a lady anywhere near a battle. I just really can not fathom how it could be fun. Sorry. :-\


Flirting with "paroled captives", extracting useful information to be passed by your lady in waiting to the Lord-commanding, entertaining the "dangerous" captives to keep them from noticing chances to escape...

All kinds of roleplaying goodness are possible...

Not to mention, giving certain knights a chance to inspire that they might not otherwise have...

And perhaps, with the right woman (or man), casting a blessing and/or glamour that turns the battle!

(and yes, all the above have been done in various KAP4 games I've run...)

Flirting with "paroled captives", extracting useful information to be passed by your lady in waiting to the Lord-commanding, entertaining the "dangerous" captives to keep them from noticing chances to escape...

All kinds of roleplaying goodness are possible...

Not to mention, giving certain knights a chance to inspire that they might not otherwise have...

And perhaps, with the right woman (or man), casting a blessing and/or glamour that turns the battle!

(and yes, all the above have been done in various KAP4 games I've run...)


However, whereas all these are GREAT roleplaying opportunities, they are not a function of Battles, per se, and I won't be including anything about "things your noncombatants can do that hve nothign to do with resolving the conflict."
Sorry.

HOWEVER, I'd love to see you write up an article for my web site!!

--Greg

Don't forget the option to rout the enemy, chase after them, ransack the camp and take hostages, then notice that your mens' absence from the battle has weakened the flank you were supposed to guard and therefore doomed the rest of your army just when victory seemed certain. My greed has screwed over entire parties before, but never an entire army.


Absolutely! Many a battle has been lost this way.

Also, when assembling the list of non-combat roles don't forget waterbearing! Armor is nowhere near as heavy as Hollywood makes it out to be (a good set of field plate weighs about 60 pounds, about the same as the current US Army "fighting load" carried afoot in Afghanistan), but it gets hot and you really perspire. Waterbearers make a huge difference. Make Valorous or Love(Husband) rolls to do this close to the battle. You WILL get noticed and appreciated (serious Glory points).

So there is a temptation to bring lots of non-combatants along with the army -- armorers, medics, clothes-washers (ever smell a gambeson after a week of combat?), etc. Nice boosts for morale. The problem comes when the resulting mob has to *march* to the battlesite (those washerwomen won't be mounted or route-march trained, slowing you down and giving the enemy time to get ready for you). And the non-combatants have to be fed and protected. So do you as a general turn your force into a slow-moving, comfortable, happy target, or a lean, mean, and smelly fighting rapid-attack force? And if you're a knight who's a member of the latter, maybe you'd better put some of your character points into non-combat skills so you can care for your own equipment, wounds, etc.

I will rephrase my last comment to some extent. I am sure women children and servants do a variety of good things but in my own campaign I feel that that would take away from the battle's Momentum. As A gm one can assume waterbearing and other activities are going on and women are helping, but unless it is the romance period, you have a specific point to be made, or u just have OCD and are very very detail oriented, I guarantee, this battle system is fast paced and you will have your hands full just keeping up with the basic action. ;) The system really is brilliant.

In Anna Comnena's Alexiad, book X chapter VIII, there's a very intense naval battle between the Byzantines and the Normans in the late 11th century (or early 12th?)

Also featuring: crossbows, a priest who has taken Fighting Jesus' example to heart.

From http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/AnnaComnena-Alexiad10.html


VIII Now this story of what happened to Ubus may serve as a preface. Bohemund (who has often been mentioned in this history already) crossed scarcely fifteen days later to the coast of Cabalion with various Counts and an army that was beyond all numbering. This Cabalion is a place near Bo?sa; these are the names of places in those parts. Let no one find fault with me for introducing these barbaric names which are a stain on the style of my history; for not even Homer disdained to mention Boeotians and certain barbarian islands for the sake of accuracy in his history.

Close on his heels the Count of Prebentza [*=Provence] came down to the shores of the straits of Lombardy, since he also wished to cross. He hired a three-masted pirate-vessel capable of carrying 10,000 measures, for six thousand gold 'staters,' there were two hundred rowers to it, and three tenders accompanied it. He however did not sail in the direction of Valona, as the other Latin armies did, but fearing the Roman fleet, he loosed his cables, tacked a little and meeting a favouring breeze, sailed straight to Chimara. But whilst trying to avoid the smoke, he fell into the fire. For he did not stumble upon the ships which were watching the straits of Lombardy at different points, but upon Nicolas Mavrocatacalon himself, the Duke of the whole Roman fleet. The Duke had heard about this pirate-vessel from afar, and had consequently taken with him all the biremes, triremes and a few fast cruisers from the whole fleet and stationed himself at Cabalion opposite Ason, the port from which he had sailed out, and [255] where he had left the large fleet. And he sent the so-called 'second Count ' with his own galley (called by the sailors 'excussatum') with injunctions that directly he saw the sailors of the aforementioned ship loose the cables and throw them into the sea, he should light a torch. The Count went off and did as he was bid. On seeing the signal the Duke Nicolas at once had the sails of some of the ships spread for sailing, the others, like polypods, he worked with oars and sailed towards the Count who was crossing. And he caught him before he had sailed more than three stades from the mainland and was hurrying towards the opposite coast of Epidamnus, and he had on board one thousand five hundred soldiers besides the eighty horses of the nobles. When the helmsman of the ship saw him he said to the Count of Prebentza, "The Syrian fleet is bearing down upon us, and we risk falling victims to the knife and sword." So the Count at once ordered all to put on their armour and fight valiantly. Though it was the middle of winter, the day of commemoration of Nicolas, the greatest saint in the Hierarchy, yet there was an absolute calm, and the full moon was shining more brightly than in spring. As all the winds had fallen, the pirate-vessel was no longer able to move under sail, so that she lay there motionless upon the waters.

Having reached this point in my history, I should like to descant on the exploits of Marianus. He at once asked his father, the Duke of the fleet, for the lighter vessels, and then steered for the Count's ship, and dashing into its prow, attacked it.

The warriors at once flocked to that spot, as they saw he was strongly armed for battle. But Marianus, speaking in their language, advised the Latins to have no fear, and not to fight against fellow-Christians. But one of the Latins hit his helmet with his crossbow. This cross-bow is a bow of the barbarians quite unknown to the Greeks; and it is not stretched by the right hand pulling the string whilst the left pulls the bow in a contrary direction, but he who stretches this warlike and very far-shooting weapon must lie, one might say, almost on his back and apply both feet strongly against the semi-circle of the bow and with his two hands pull the string with all his might in the contrary direction. In the middle of the string is a socket, a cylindrical kind of cup fitted to the string itself, and about as long as an arrow of considerable size which reaches from the string to the very middle of the bow; and through this arrows of many sorts are shot out. [256] The arrows used with this bow are very short in length, but very thick, fitted in front with a very heavy iron tip. And in discharging them the string shoots them out with enormous violence and force, and whatever these darts chance to hit, they do not fall back, but they pierce through a shield, then cut through a heavy iron corselet and wing their way through and out at the other side. So violent and ineluctable is the discharge of arrows of this kind. Such an arrow has been known to pierce a bronze statue, and if it hits the wall of a very large town, the point of the arrow either protrudes on the inner side or it buries itself in the middle of the wall and is lost. Such then is this monster of a crossbow, and verily a devilish invention. And the wretched man who is struck by it, dies without feeling anything, not even feeling the blow, however strong it be.

To resume, the arrow from the crossbow struck the top of Marianus' helmet and pierced it in its flight without touching a hair of his head, for Providence warded it off. Then the man speedily discharged another arrow at the Count, and hit him in the arm; the arrow bored through the shield, passed through his cuirass of scale armour, and touched his side. A certain Latin priest who happened to be standing in the stem with twelve other fighting men, saw this, and let fly several arrows against Marianus. Not even then did Marianus surrender, but fought fiercely himself and encouraged his men to do the same, so that three times over the men with the priest had to be replaced, as they were wounded and sore pressed. The priest himself, however, although he had received many blows, and was streaming with his own blood, remained quite fearless. For the rules concerning priests are not the same among the Latins as they are with us ; For we are given the command by the canonical laws and the teaching of the Gospel, " Touch not, taste not, handle not! For thou art consecrated." Whereas the Latin barbarian will simultaneously handle divine things, and wear his shield on his left arm, and hold his spear in his right hand, and at one and the same time he communicates the body and blood of God, and looks murderously and becomes 'a man of blood,' as it says in the psalm of David. For this barbarian race is no less devoted to sacred things than it is to war. And so this man of violence rather than priest, wore his priestly garb at the same time that he handled the oar and had an eye equally to naval or land warfare, fighting simultaneously with the sea and with men. But [257] our rules, as I have just remarked, are derived from the . . . of Aaron and Moses and our first high-priest. After the battle had raged fiercely from the evening till next midday, the Latins surrendered to Marianus, much against their will, after asking and obtaining a promise of immunity.

But that most bellicose priest did not stop fighting, even while the truce was being concluded, but as he had emptied his quiver of darts, he picked up a sling-stone and hurled it at Marianus. The latter protected his head with his shield, but the stone struck the shield and broke it in four pieces and shattered his helmet. And Marianus was overwhelmed by the blow from the stone, and at once fell unconscious, and lay speechless a long time, just as the hero Hector almost gave up the ghost when hit with a stone by Ajax. He recovered with difficulty, and then pulled himself together and by shooting arrows at him, thrice hit the man who had struck him. Yet that polemarch, rather than priest, was not even then sated with fighting, and as he had hurled all the stones he had, he was now utterly unarmed and bereft both of stones and of darts ; so not knowing what to do or how to defend himself against his adversary, he grew impatient, and stormed and raged and twisted himself about like a wild beast ; and directly he saw anything handy he used it. Then he discovered a sack of barley-cakes and began throwing out the barley-cakes from the sack as though they were stones, as if he were officiating and taking a service, and turning war into a sacred celebration. And one barley-cake he picked up, drove it with all his might, aiming at Marianus' face, and hit him on the cheek. So much for that priest and the ship and its crew. The Count of Prebentza, after surrendering himself and his ship and his soldiers to Marianus, immediately followed him. And when they had reached land and were disembarking, that same priest often and repeatedly asked for Marianus and, because he did not know his name, he called him by the colour of his clothes. When he found him, he threw his arms round him and embraced him, whilst saying boastfully, " If you had met me on dry land, many of you would have been killed by my hands." Then he pulled out and gave him a large silver cup worth one hundred and thirty staters. And with these words and this gift he breathed his last.

I know it might seem that I'm pushing really hard for naval battles, but I'm not. I just want to make it known that there were very dramatic naval battles in both medieval history and legend, and a perceived lack of these should not discourage anyone from putting their knights on the poopdeck. Actually, forget about naval battles, just put in that badass priest.

That is one badass priest!

Gotta say ...........
Not too excited to play a lady anywhere near a battle. I just really can not fathom how it could be fun. Sorry. :-\

Anna Comnena, book IV, chapter V. http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/annacomnena-alexiad04.html

During the Battle of Dyrrachium in 1081, between the Byzantines under Alexius Comnenus and the Italo-Normans under Robert of Guiscard, at some point some Norman soldiers fled the battle, only to be intercepted by Robert's wife Ga?ta, who scolded them until they stopped being such cowards and returned to battle. If galloping around and shrieking at fleeing soldiers sounds like a good time to you, then go hog wild, I guess.

In Anna Comnena's Alexiad, book X chapter VIII, there's a very intense naval battle between the Byzantines and the Normans in the late 11th century (or early 12th?)

Also featuring: crossbows, a priest who has taken Fighting Jesus' example to heart.

From http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/AnnaComnena-Alexiad10.html



Absolutely priceless on all counts. Thank you for that. Total LoL for me.
I ought to read her work.




I know it might seem that I'm pushing really hard for naval battles, but I'm not. I just want to make it known that there were very dramatic naval battles in both medieval history and legend, and a perceived lack of these should not discourage anyone from putting their knights on the poopdeck.



I think the system can be easily adapted to sea battles, which are really mainly land battles on limited space anyway. Thus retreat = fall overboard and drown, and so on.




Actually, forget about naval battles, just put in that badass priest.



History is full of them, although the documentation and shocked eastern perspective here adds to the delight.
Bishop Odo, the brother of William the Conqueror comes to mind.
Of course, it is from examples like these that the D&D priest can use maces, etc.

--Greg

Just outta curiosity: will the Book of Battles pertain to the melee in tournaments as well? (I sure hope that tournamant fights will be addressed in this book ...)

Just outta curiosity: will the Book of Battles pertain to the melee in tournaments as well? (I sure hope that tournamant fights will be addressed in this book ...)

that is just battle with rebated weapons, but otherwise, it does not address tournament. It is about battles.
--g

Oh, ok. I was thinking of more along the lines of a table or two to address tournament style melee opponents, but we can probably come up with something!

On sea battles - the Gaelic societies in western Scotland (typically called Dal Riada) were naval experts who fought many naval conflicts as this was their means of defending territory. To become Lord of the Isles, the prospective ruler would have to steer his curragh solo through the treacherous island span. Somerled, the patriach of the later Hebridean dynasties, won several naval engagements http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerled especially against the King of Man.

Still, I'd much prefer to see the BoB in print so I can have it and more importantly can also buy the BoK (as well as the other 2) so not doing much for sea war is a good decision.

Oh, ok. I was thinking of more along the lines of a table or two to address tournament style melee opponents, but we can probably come up with something!

There is a d20 table for the "All-knight battle" which is pefect for calculating Joust opponents.

--Greg

On sea battles - the Gaelic societies in western Scotland (typically called Dal Riada) were naval experts who fought many naval conflicts as this was their means of defending territory. To become Lord of the Isles, the prospective ruler would have to steer his curragh solo through the treacherous island span. Somerled, the patriach of the later Hebridean dynasties, won several naval engagements http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somerled especially against the King of Man.

No denying that.
But naval combat is relatively rare (I'll just go back and remind everyone: do any of your knight EVER have Boating or Swimming?)
I will be happy to see anyone come up with some naval rules after BoB is out!


Still, I'd much prefer to see the BoB in print so I can have it and more importantly can also buy the BoK (as well as the other 2) so not doing much for sea war is a good decision.

Agreed.

--Greg

Speaking of the Book of Battle, I was delighted with the cover design posted on Greg Stafford's site, showing scenes from the Bayeux Tapestry (or at least, in the style of the Bayeux Tapestry). Thanks for choosing that, Greg! (Unless the decision to use images from the Bayeux Tapestry was someone else's idea, in which case, please pass my thanks along to him or her.)

Speaking of the Book of Battle, I was delighted with the cover design posted on Greg Stafford's site, showing scenes from the Bayeux Tapestry (or at least, in the style of the Bayeux Tapestry). Thanks for choosing that, Greg! (Unless the decision to use images from the Bayeux Tapestry was someone else's idea, in which case, please pass my thanks along to him or her.)


That is from David Zeeman, the layout master who does the work on the supplements. He is responsible for all the art int he books, and I think he's a genius at it.

--Greg

If you like the bayaux tapestry then I hope you have not missed this:
http://www.adgame-wonderland.de/type/bayeux.php
I did one for my players once, with their latest tale of course.
I also plan on using it as a prop with hints regarding a "who dunnit" story.