Last gaming session we had a bit of a row about lances, spears and javelins.

It started with the rules stating (lance skill I think, don't have them here) that a lance is a spear held straight and used in a horse charge.
That was then interpreted by one of my players to mean that it was the same weapon only used with different skills.
While my ruling was that each skill represents a different weapon and thus a big penalty when using one as the other.
To which my player got a bit grumpy. He wanted to be able to charge in with a spear using lance skill, then in the meele use the same spear with the spear skill. Without penalties.
I just pulled out the GM fiat and told him that my ruling stands - but now I want to check
A) The rules are a bit ambigiuos - what gives?
B) How do you other GMs rule this?

Then when walking home another player gave the example of javelins just to make things worse... ;D

I always ruled that it is the same weapon. A spear used in a charge means you use your lance skill. If you cannot charge you use your spear skill.
Remember that holding on to the spear after the charge is difficult. It breaks easily on a charge and when it has scewered an enemy it may have gotten in too deep to pull it out again.

I have no trouble with a PK using only his spear as a main weapon. He would be a bit of a stranger, not using the noble sword, but it is possible.

In the BoKL Cymrics get the spear expertise that replaces both lance and spear skill, btw.

Javelins are a very different story all together. They are light weight and smaller spears. I would not allow PK use the javelin in a lance charge. These weapons were not designed to be used in this manner and will not be able to confer the impact of the horse. The weapon would break before doing any real damage.

I'm ruling it the same way as Cornelius. Charging PKs use the Lance skill, switching to Spear skill once the charge is over. With the advent of the Spear Expertise skill - which covers Lance, Spear and Great Spear - the difference is irrevelant for Cymric characters.

I find it quite workable.

While we're on the subject, I'd like to address the matter of PENDRAGON characters not being able to throw spears. I can't make any sense of this. The prevailing theory of military historians is that William's cavalry men did just that at Hastings, which is supposed be the historical equivalent of the Uther Period in the game. In fact, Stephen Morillo in his "The Battle of Hastings: Sources and Interpretations" says the Norman cavalry were mounted javelineers and didn't even charge the English ranks—that this tactic had not yet been fully developed. Although the Tapestry shows a few examples of Normans running down Englishmen with spears couched under their arms, their are many more depictions of spears be held over head and being thrown or stabbing downward. There are also depictions of spears in the air, thrown from Norman cavalrymen.

I can see lances being reserved for later periods, and I can see not being able to throw a lance. But not being able to throw a spear? It doesn't make sense in the context of this period. I think this should be revisited with the next edition.


Best,


T.

I am not really familiar with the history here, but especially in the Uther time the effect of a lance or spear is different than later times.

In the GPC it is mentioned that the rouncy is the main horse. Only in later times the Charger makes its appearance.
From a gameplay point of view I get the following:
Lance skill, uses the impact of the horse rather than the rider. With a rouncy (4d6) this means a knight is probably better in damage ( usually 5d6). Only with a charger the damage exceeds that of the knight (6d6).
A spear skill uses the damage stat of the rider. So it will probably be 5d6. It does not matter if you are riding a rouncy or charger.

So in the early years the Spear skill will probably be favored over that of the Lance skill.

If you follow my ruling than it is how you use the weapon on what skill it is. throwing a spear would go on the spear skill rather than the lance skill and would use the damage of the rider.

Sorry to intrude in this, since I'm all new here and all... but a spear and a lance, in my humble view, are very different weapons. The spear is designed to be used standing, by an unmounted man, and it can be easily carried and thrown. It was at most, what, maybe 2m long? Now, a lance is something else together. I'd imagine them to be something like 3m or longer and they definitely are not used for throwing, but for having reach from a very mobile platform (the horse). Also, they're designed differently: since they are not to be thrown, they don't have to be all slim like the javelin/spear is.

As for javelin / spear, I simply think the javelin is shorter and should not be used melee, while the spear still can be used as a melee weapon. Just think of asian martial arts, for example.

That's my two cents, anyway. Hope I've helped.

P.S.:

I looked something up:
Spears: http://www.medievalwarfare.info/weapons.htm#spears
Lance: http://www.medievalwarfare.info/weapons.htm#lances
Javelins: http://www.medievalwarfare.info/weapons.htm#javelins

note the different designs of the weapons

If you follow my ruling than it is how you use the weapon on what skill it is. throwing a spear would go on the spear skill rather than the lance skill and would use the damage of the rider.


Agreed. The problem is the rules in KAP 5.1 specifically state a spear cannot be thrown. Gonna have to house rule that. Going forward, in my game they most definitely can be thrown, just as the Normans did at Hastings.


T.

Spear-throwing kept showing up in tournaments into the 15th-16th century; apparently, a spear thrown at very close range with a running start had a tremendous deal of force. However, that would make it more like an unmounted version of the couched lance, rather than a long-range attack.

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.com/2007/02/merle-vs-de-chargny-1435-thrown-lance.html
http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.com/2007/02/fighting-with-thrown-lances-in-15th-c.html
http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.com/2011/06/fighting-on-foot-in-lists-with-spear-or.html

Interesting to see that the Lance is more related with the javelin (aka thrwoing spear) than the spear (thursting spear). Even its name is derived from launch, aka throwing. As Taliesin mentioned throwing the spear was more regular.

As for the design. I would have expected a difference, but I assume that like all developments it would be later. If you follow the development from a sort of throwing spear in the early days to a thrusting spear in the latter days the design would make the spear longer: To get reach from horseback.
I would say the lance as a thrusting spear came into use with the advent of heavier horses. The impact of the horses would make it better at using it as a thrusting spear in favor of the throwing spear.

Last gaming session we had a bit of a row about lances, spears and javelins.


Lance and spear are the same weapon used in two different ways

While we're on the subject, I'd like to address the matter of PENDRAGON characters not being able to throw spears.


a lance/spear and a javelin are entirely different weapons.
A lance is much larger than a javelin, which is a special spear made for throwing. It is much, much too short to use as a lance or a spear.
I can see lances being reserved for later periods, and I can see not being able to throw a lance. But not being able to throw a spear? It doesn't make sense in the context of this period. I think this should be revisited with the next edition.

Nope, it will stay the same
I am quite aware of what historians say
They also have said that Romans could not have effe3ctively drawn their short swords if they were on the right hip, which is also bunk.
Please go through the units in BoARMIES if you want to check my knowledge of mounted javelin units. Heck, the Spaniards were using jennets through the whole middle ages.
I am not saying that a long spear cannot be thrown
I am saying it was not made for that
and it is too large, heavy and bulky

Another blog post (and view) concerning this very topic:

http://vickyenglishscamelot.blogspot.com/2010/11/somewhat-brief-history-of-jousting.html

I dunno, I see the Bayeaux Tapestry (a fair length of which is hanging here in my study) and those Norman knights that are definitely throwing their spears and I think we'll have to agree to amicably disagree on this one. Although I know the tapestry can't be taken as a video documentary of the battle, there are so many other things we take as fact from this embroidered account—from the armor and shield design to the use of stirrups, the method of transporting horses, etc.— that it's hard for me to imagine this depiction of the Normans throwing their spears as just being someone's fancy.

I personally buy-in to the interpretation that tells of the Normans charging up the hill and attacking the English in this manner (throwing spears, ride away, return and throw again) and that they weren't making much of a dent in the shield wall until the English broke ranks and chased them down the hill. THEN they were able to ride down the pursuing English, perhaps with the lance couched under their arm. Or maybe they mostly threw their spears here as well.

At any rate, it doesn't appear that the familiar image we have of a line of knights charging with spears (or lances) couched had not yet evolved as a battlefield tactic at the time of the Invasion.

Best,


T.

I think Greg is right on this.

Not that the Tapestry is wrong mind you, but I think that they are actually throwing Javelins rather than their thrusting spears. A javelins head is much different and designed for flight, a spears is generally much much larger/heavier.

Now, I would house rule this. If they have a javelin skill, then I would allow them to throw a spear (not a lance or great spear), but at a penalty, and to a distance of no more than twice their skill in feet.

SDLeary

Another blog post (and view) concerning this very topic:

http://vickyenglishscamelot.blogspot.com/2010/11/somewhat-brief-history-of-jousting.html

I dunno, I see the Bayeaux Tapestry (a fair length of which is hanging here in my study) and those Norman knights that are definitely throwing their spears a.....



Due to the anachronistic nature of Pendragon, the couched lance replaces the early tactic of riding up and throwing the lance as depicted on the Bayeaux Tapestry.

Watch this video, it is an episode on the lance from the wonderful series entitled "Weapons That Made Britain" by historian Mike Loades.

Here is part 1, it is @ 5 minutes long and discusses the lance charge in the tapestry at around the 4 minute mark :

http://youtu.be/LsSS5D7GCCM

I suggest watching all of the various parts of the episode.

**edited to add**

I embrace the anachronism of the game and use the couched lance even in the early periods, in addition to the rest of the rules as written. Lance and Spear are interchangeable melee weapons and the javelin is for throwing. It best depicts the flavor of the game, imo.