I was rereading Matthew DeForrest's essay on Greg's site about Grail Christianity which states
"At the heart of Grail Christianity is Compassion.
In game terms, a Compassionate Character has a
minimum of 15 in the following five traits:
Forgiving, for all who are compassionate must
forgive the anger of those in distress.
Generous, for all who care for others must have a
generous spirit.
Just, for caring for others requires you to be
concerned with treating others fairly.
Merciful, for compassion requires you to act to assist
those in need.
Valorous, for sympathy without action is pity, not
compassion.
These traits do not supersede the Christian traits nor
does having a 15 or above confer a religious bonus to
knights. Magical practitioners of Grail Christianity
(Priests, Nuns, Friars, Hermits, etc.) who have a 15 or
above in each of the traits and have a total of 80 or
more in the traits receive a +5 bonus to any talent
rolls that are motivated by any of these traits."

From that description it seems like Grail Christianity is a subset of another form (or forms) of Christianity. A
fter all other religions offer a significant bonus for those who closely adhere to the appropriate religious virtues. Grail Christianity doesn't seem to offer any equivalent bonus, unless Grail Christianity's +5 bonus is considered equivalent.However the bonuses of other faiths seem to be very useful in game terms and very combat oriented, with additions to armor, healing rate, damage, and hit points. So, if Grail Christianity is treated as a full religion it would not be very useful for knights, since most would rather have a bonus that helps them in combat. In a game about knights Grail Christianity doesn't seem a very attractive option for knights.

On the other hand, Grail Christianity is often refereed to in the text as if it were a full-fledged religion. DeForrest's essay seems to indicate that Grail Christians are a separate branch of Christianity, not just a subset of Celtic and/or Roman Christians. There are other instances in adventures and encounters that seem to give at least the impression that Grail Christians see themselves as a distinct form of Christians, even if their henotheism means they view other types of Christianity as equally valid.

So what is Grail Christianity? Is it a sub-sect of other forms of Christianity? If so, is it available to Celtic Christians, Roman Christians, or both? What about more obscure forms of Christianity like Arianism or Platonic Christianity? Since it is henotheistic is it also open to Pagans, Heathens, and others? Or is it a completely seperate religion?

From that description it seems like Grail Christianity is a subset of another form (or forms) of Christianity. A
fter all other religions offer a significant bonus for those who closely adhere to the appropriate religious virtues. Grail Christianity doesn't seem to offer any equivalent bonus, unless Grail Christianity's +5 bonus is considered equivalent.However the bonuses of other faiths seem to be very useful in game terms and very combat oriented, with additions to armor, healing rate, damage, and hit points. So, if Grail Christianity is treated as a full religion it would not be very useful for knights, since most would rather have a bonus that helps them in combat. In a game about knights Grail Christianity doesn't seem a very attractive option for knights.

Correct
In fact, according to the literature there is almost a direct opposition of the Grail to Chivalry


So what is Grail Christianity?

Perhaps this is only discovered while on the quest :)
Maybe Matthew is on the forum these days and can reply


Is it a sub-sect of other forms of Christianity? If so, is it available to Celtic Christians, Roman Christians, or both? What about more obscure forms of Christianity like Arianism or Platonic Christianity? Since it is henotheistic is it also open to Pagans, Heathens, and others? Or is it a completely seperate religion?

I do not think that the solid, black/white descriptions you want can ever be found
The questions you ask are pretty typical of the questions that everyone asks about the Grail
Nonetheless, I hopeother people do chip in!

Correct
In fact, according to the literature there is almost a direct opposition of the Grail to Chivalry




I suppose I can see that. It does create issues with players feeling conflicted about wanting to role play their characters but also suffering in-game penalties for doing so. Still that's the nature of the game to some degree.




Perhaps this is only discovered while on the quest :)
Maybe Matthew is on the forum these days and can reply




I hope he's around as well. That being said, the article is on your site, but it's not by you, so how "canonical" is it?




I do not think that the solid, black/white descriptions you want can ever be found
The questions you ask are pretty typical of the questions that everyone asks about the Grail
Nonetheless, I hope other people do chip in!




Fair enough. Still I'd like to know, at least as player if not a designer, how do you handle it in your campaign?

canon?
At the risk of distressing people
I do not have a KAP canon
It is so big, so vast, that I would not create a canon that would make people hesitate to express themselves

As I said before somewhere
the only canon for KAP are some church guys
and the evil weapon used to assault Camelot :)


Fair enough. Still I'd like to know, at least as player if not a designer, how do you handle it in your campaign?

It has not come up :/
We use British Christianity and Roman

We use British Christianity and Roman



I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you saying you've considered Grail Christianity to be a subset of Roman and British Christianity or that you've had Roman and British Christians but no pagans or heathens in your campaign or something else?

canon?

As I said before somewhere
the only canon for KAP are some church guys
and the evil weapon used to assault Camelot :)


I wish you hadn't said that last bit, since it could encourage further use of "canon" and "cannon" as if they were interchangeable rather than different words. (Though the frequent misuse of "loose" for "lose" worries me even more.)

We use British Christianity and Roman

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Are you saying you've considered Grail Christianity to be a subset of Roman and British Christianity or that you've had Roman and British Christians but no pagans or heathens in your campaign or something else?

I am saying we have not used Grail Christianity

On a related subject, I learned today on a British History Magazine podcast that the Roman church did not really arrive in Britain until 597, I think it was. I know that there are many anachronisms in the GPC by design, but it seems like one could do with just paganism and the British church—unless there are events in the campaign that require the Roman Church (I haven't read that far yet).

T.

What would it add, besides the satisfaction of knowing that the story of a continent-spanning kingdom ruled by a giant-slaying man with a magic sword and direct divine intervention at least gets this one factual detail right? The Arthurian romance was written down half a millennium after St. Boniface, and the literature is shot through with Roman Catholic theology, ritual, and religious hierarchy, and is never assumed to be otherwise. If we were to make our pseudo-history slightly less pseudo-historical, it would be at the expense of the spiritual imagery and themes that makes up so much of the canon.

Is there a question here?


On a related subject, I learned today on a British History Magazine podcast that the Roman church did not really arrive in Britain until 597, I think it was. I know that there are many anachronisms in the GPC by design, but it seems like one could do with just paganism and the British church—unless there are events in the campaign that require the Roman Church (I haven't read that far yet).

T.

On Roman Christianity in Britain before 597. The GPC is a framework, and I think one that is deliberately intended to be flexible and adaptable to campaigns that explore different themes and possibilities. You pose a great question, and you could establish a very flavourful and distinct personal campaign using the assumption that Roman Christianity arrives after the start of the campaign and exploring the consequences.

The game/campaign as written doesn't look at church politics and the spread and clash of different forms of Christianity in any detail, so assuming that both exist side by side from the start simplifies things a lot. How many pages of the GPC would you remove to make way for material on that? Which pages? Sorry, that is a stark way to put it, but a realistic one.

On Grail Christianity. My impression is that this is really a very localised phenomenon even within Britain, and applies to those few who have had contact with or have knowledge of the Grail. I don't think there is a Grail Christian church hierarchy or even people proselytising Grail Christian teachings publicly, but just a scattering of individuals or very small communities with knowledge of Grail lore.


Simon Hibbs

* First post, and very glad to be here. I'm gearing up to run a GPC game at my local games club. I've never run Pendragon before, and nobody there has ever played it so it should be interesting.

Is there a question here?

Not at all. Just an observation.


T.