First of all: Hello my fellow gamers in the wondrous world of King Arthur!

I feel like I am waking up after a veery long (roleplaying-) slumber. What I mean is that I have always longed for the opportunity to gamemaster KAP since the initial days in the mid-eighties when I first bought the earliest boxed edition of this game! And I did, but always too seldom and never enough to conquer my munchkiny "roll-playing" friends tastes over here in Sweden. I myself got sidetracked time and again by other RPGs, sometimes excellent ones (such as CoC or WFRP) but often by inferior ones, just because my friends hadn't seen the light (of KAP)...! Or they just didn't have the gusto for it, strangely (or not so strangely) often the same friends that doesn't want games like CoC also doesn't fancy Pendragon.

Anyway! Now I am at long last starting up a group of four players that really value the word "role" in roleplaying, and I have decided to start the GPC in the Uther era. So, now I really would like you - true Pendragon gamers - to describe to me the best way of preparing for this. Some small rules/limitations that I've already decided on are these;

1. I am sticking with the Salisbury manors as starting points for the characters, but would like to see some small differences between the PCs, such as not everyone being 1st sons (one of them could be the spare, another not yet outlived his father - but the father is very sick,etc), they could be of different descent and also be more or less pious. More ideas please!

2. I'd like for all the PCs to be christians, but they could be variably of British- or Roman christian belief. I just want to be good at seeing the differences during play (and I've read about them in the rulebook), but could someone who've had the experience as a gamemaster perhaps please explain/advice on this?

3. Since I am starting in the Uther period (and I really admire the John Boorman approach to the era in Excalibur), I feel it somehow wrong to just throw some random adventures at them in between the greater drama with the saxons. Instead I'd want more happenings and adventure seeds related to the "saxon situation" so as to really put emphasis on the worrying times that are looming. Please give me advice if you can on how to accomplish this, it doesn't have to be in detail! THANKS!

Some idea that may help.

1) I just started a GPC with knights from Salisbury and gave each starting manor a slight bonus. Each has something different. Aside from the special building there is also a +3 bonus to a skill related to the building. It helps when you grow up around such things.
The additional income is based on the Lordly Domains and a lot of house rules, so may not work well with Book of the Manor, but may give some ideas.

2) Not much there yet. All my PK chose to be Britisch so no differences between them yet. I am not sure if I am going to use the religious angle much, although one of the PK has his religious bonus. (Players rolled for their personality traits)

3) Saxons have just like the cymric a strong sence of family and clan. This could mean that a certain family is behind all the raids into Salisbury. You could have the PK defeat several raids before they figure that out. It also may mean that a certain group of Saxons have a htred against these knights, because they foiled their plans. When the Earl dies they will be in trouble.

Some idea that may help.

1) I just started a GPC with knights from Salisbury and gave each starting manor a slight bonus. Each has something different. Aside from the special building there is also a +3 bonus to a skill related to the building. It helps when you grow up around such things.
The additional income is based on the Lordly Domains and a lot of house rules, so may not work well with Book of the Manor, but may give some ideas.

2) Not much there yet. All my PK chose to be Britisch so no differences between them yet. I am not sure if I am going to use the religious angle much, although one of the PK has his religious bonus. (Players rolled for their personality traits)

3) Saxons have just like the cymric a strong sence of family and clan. This could mean that a certain family is behind all the raids into Salisbury. You could have the PK defeat several raids before they figure that out. It also may mean that a certain group of Saxons have a htred against these knights, because they foiled their plans. When the Earl dies they will be in trouble.


This is excellent! Thank you Cornelius! I also always had the feeling of "bonusing" on the PKs (or any PCs really) is the right way to go (although not too much of course), but also linking it to the manor - that's swell! Good ideas. May be I should talk this through with each player, asking what the starting thoughts on the character background is for each one, and then rhyme that with certain bonuses to that family's story? Yes, yes, yes. You've really got me started here!

And as you say, saxons also must feel the toes of their family- (or clan-) feelings stepped on, when the PKs manage to stand in their way. That's if they do. I'm also a member of the Yahoo-group for KAP, and one of the other members there have started posting messages about his sessions - and he combined the starting hunt with a saxon incursion, which IMO is very clever. I think I'll go that way too. Surprising players with two conflicting developments (or more) is always good, if it works.

I sense the feeling that I've probably stepped on more toes than saxon ones, by saying that "I feel it somehow wrong to just throw some random adventures at them", what I mean is that I'd want the starting adventures for the squires to be just as heated as the overall situation is between Uther and his adversaries. And also I would want the characters to be squires a little longer than the short while it's planned for in the GPC. They should get the general awe of being in service of a REAL knight before jumping into the role themselves. But how? I am so open for any idea here.

I've also made my own down-sized version of the basic knight character sheet and I'm calling it "the Squire sheet". Maybe somebody else have made that too?

Also, I think that the Uther Era should be a little bit more emphasized - and I reckon that's what Mr. Stafford is working on right now...? I really LIKE the Uther Era, its dark atmosphere and the free-for-all land-grabbing opportunities that'll present itself later. The way Boorman shows the "chaos knight"-look in the beginning of Excalibur is also something heart-stirring for me. I know it means the armor outlook is even more strained historically, but it's shocking and it should be!

To be honest. I like to get them as knights asap. Being a squire has some downside I , as a GM, do not like.

1) A squire obeys his knight in all things. If you have an inexperienced group it could be to get them going and show them how to behave as a knight, but being a squire takes a lot of decision making away from the characters. As a GM I like it when the players create the story and are in control of their actions.
2) As a squire you are not on par with the other hobnobs. stepping up and speaking with the Earl is not done for a squire. A knight on the other hand has this possibility. I have a feeling that adventures as a squire tend to be different as those as a knight. A squire has more freedom in his actions, but lacks the possibility to interact with the other nobility a knight has. and the interaction with the nobility is the core of the KAP experience, imho.

A squire in service is tricky. You have very little agency in the forum of traditional adventures, since it is either your principal who steps up to meet the challenges or you are following orders. Of course you could go for something less traditional (take inspiration from 'My Life With Master' say and run stuff which is all about how do they balance their personal inclinations against the conflicting demands of their Knight) but that's not a good intro to core KAP play.

Having player characters start out as Esquires or Milites is much more workable however, especially in the looser Uther milieu. You can then focus your initial set of adventures on how the characters put together enough renown to be granted the boon of knighthood. Create a few potential patrons along the lines of the 'eligible ladies' in the core book and you could structure it as a pre-romance 'romance' challenge...

Regards
Luke

To be honest. I like to get them as knights asap. Being a squire has some downside I , as a GM, do not like.

1) A squire obeys his knight in all things. If you have an inexperienced group it could be to get them going and show them how to behave as a knight, but being a squire takes a lot of decision making away from the characters. As a GM I like it when the players create the story and are in control of their actions.
2) As a squire you are not on par with the other hobnobs. stepping up and speaking with the Earl is not done for a squire. A knight on the other hand has this possibility. I have a feeling that adventures as a squire tend to be different as those as a knight. A squire has more freedom in his actions, but lacks the possibility to interact with the other nobility a knight has. and the interaction with the nobility is the core of the KAP experience, imho.


I hear you Cornelius and I think I'll actually heed your advice. But I am determined to atleast flesh out their respective Knight master, so as not just to speed over the whole "trainee period" as squires. They should be troubled/amused/interested in what their master wants/does/has as his plans for the future, and by that get insights into the world of nobility and movers and shakers. The hob-nobbing IS very important yes, but to be part of the circle of decision-making can't be all that immediate when they've been knighted recently? Or can it?

Still there is that question of making an adventurous chain of happenings that has it's roots in the overall saxon situation.
Over the years since the eighties I have purchased almost every Pendragon version of the core book and all the supplements/adventures that has been printed in english. I'll have a look see what the various scenarios is about in all the books. But for a bunch of squires I'll probably have to down-size the resistance and difficulty of the adventures.

A squire in service is tricky. You have very little agency in the forum of traditional adventures, since it is either your principal who steps up to meet the challenges or you are following orders. Of course you could go for something less traditional (take inspiration from 'My Life With Master' say and run stuff which is all about how do they balance their personal inclinations against the conflicting demands of their Knight) but that's not a good intro to core KAP play.

Having player characters start out as Esquires or Milites is much more workable however, especially in the looser Uther milieu. You can then focus your initial set of adventures on how the characters put together enough renown to be granted the boon of knighthood. Create a few potential patrons along the lines of the 'eligible ladies' in the core book and you could structure it as a pre-romance 'romance' challenge...

Regards
Luke


Now this is very very good advice! Yes, why not make them esquires instead? Btw, what's the difference between esquires an milites? I'll have to read up on the whole esquire station. Are they landless lesser nobles?

Pre-romance era romancing! Yes, that also sound really good. I'll see what I can dig up and/or remodel out of what's already there. Has anyone else used the esquire-model start for their campaign(s)? I'd love to hear about this! Thank you Silburnl!

Now this is very very good advice! Yes, why not make them esquires instead? Btw, what's the difference between esquires an milites? I'll have to read up on the whole esquire station. Are they landless lesser nobles?

Upcoming releases (and my current game) suggest using cavalrymen as first characters, and having knighthood as a reward for excellence--cavalryman being now favored by me instead of miles , which is less player-friendly.
I'd suggest there are no KAP esquires in the Uther Period, since an esquire is a nobleman who has not taken knighthood. Since knighthood is just being established in the Uther Period, it is just more sensible.

Upcoming releases (and my current game) suggest using cavalrymen as first characters, and having knighthood as a reward for excellence--cavalryman being now favored by me instead of miles , which is less player-friendly.
I'd suggest there are no KAP esquires in the Uther Period, since an esquire is a nobleman who has not taken knighthood. Since knighthood is just being established in the Uther Period, it is just more sensible.


Aha, that explains a lot and sounds interesting to say the least. Are they then equites before being reinvented/instated as knights? The transferring of roman cavalrymen and their ideals into the birth of early medieval knighthood should be very enticing!

Even if I have 5th ed Pendragon I have translated much of the 4th ed descriptions of the different launds and realms surrounding Salisbury into swedish for easier absorption by my players, but then when I got to Hampshire/Wessex all ground to a halt. The info on this area is so crucial to this period. How easy is the lives for Hampshire-men in those days?

Anyway, I have an idea of starting the whole squire-episode-period for the players in the interim years of 481-483 described in the 5th ed. As they are somewhat calmer years, it should be possible to insert adventures of all kinds - saxon-filled and others - and then make the squires accompany their knightly masters in Uther's relief effort to Eburacum and be almost killed there! THEN return home and be knighted in 485. If I can pull that off.

Upcoming releases (and my current game) suggest using cavalrymen as first characters, and having knighthood as a reward for excellence--cavalryman being now favored by me instead of miles , which is less player-friendly.
I'd suggest there are no KAP esquires in the Uther Period, since an esquire is a nobleman who has not taken knighthood. Since knighthood is just being established in the Uther Period, it is just more sensible.


Aha, that explains a lot and sounds interesting to say the least. Are they then equites before being reinvented/instated as knights? The transferring of roman cavalrymen and their ideals into the birth of early medieval knighthood should be very enticing!

Even if I have 5th ed Pendragon I have translated much of the 4th ed descriptions of the different launds and realms surrounding Salisbury into swedish for easier absorption by my players, but then when I got to Hampshire/Wessex all ground to a halt. The info on this area is so crucial to this period. How easy is the lives for Hampshire-men in those days?

Anyway, I have an idea of starting the whole squire-episode-period for the players in the interim years of 481-483 described in the 5th ed. As they are somewhat calmer years, it should be possible to insert adventures of all kinds - saxon-filled and others - and then make the squires accompany their knightly masters in Uther's relief effort to Eburacum and be almost killed there! THEN return home and be knighted in 485. If I can pull that off.


Pushing things back a year or two gives you more room to work with. And the family history details is giving you some framework events to work with regarding the overall political situation (Uther/Saxons/etc.)

Something else you can potentially work with is the county's internal politics. There are bound to be factions within the county that think Roderick should be favoring certain activities over other activities; more raiding, less raiding, higher tallage to hire mercenaries, etc.)

If your squires or equites are all serving in a particular section of the county their lord can reflect one of these viewpoints and court activities (or military) can display some of the other points of view. And you can complicate this as you see fit moving forward, especially since it can be used to effect when Anarchy commences.

And, in my opinion, Hampshire/Wessex is going to have it rough. Probably being raided constantly along the coast and up the rivers (the Danes were raiding up the River Avon in the 900s.) Then they get outright invaded, overrun, and enslaved. Which opens a possibility for a PK to be from a family of dispossessed refugees hoping to recover lands at some point.

Thank you Oaktree! Yes, I was (is) tempted to go that way, and use the crescendo of battle just before they turn into knights.
And just as you say the excellent framework of what has gone before is so very helpful in building the character background. It's in the same wonderful Staffordian/Chaosium tradition of "What your Character Knows" that I love so much! It has helped me as a gamemaster and the players in answering basic important questions, and this does too. I can think of no other RPG tradition that use this kind of guide lines.

Nice tips about the internal politics. Yep, there's always someone grumbling in midst of society. That grumbling I encountered in a couple of online GPC session reports a while ago. Don't remember where I read it, but that GM really described their respective knight lieges as very different personalities, something I'd like to do too. But where can I find info on the kind of things their lieges could be complaining about? Do you mean it's in the descriptions on towns, folks and areas of Britain? I have read them through, but I don't think I've seen any descriptions on folks differing in their views within Salisbury itself. That disposessed idea is really good! Thanks!

I think it's something you'd have to project from the rough locations within the county, or simply decide what the notable traits are of the lord in that area and have they drive his feelings. A lord with a high Vengeful in a border area probably wants more raiding, etc. Anyone with a high Proud can find something to have been slighted over; his daughter not getting a good husband, his daughter-in-law not bringing in a good enough dowry.

Plus you could also go back a bit and roll a few family events for this or that lord to seek motivations. Kidnappings, witchcraft accusations, etc. are all there for providing plot hooks. Use them to add a bit of depth (or a curve ball) to a NPCs motivations.

I'm setting up a campaign right now that is centering on Dorset rather than Salisbury. Since I have a Roman nobility and a praetorship to work with I have the county's nobility centering around a number of extended families (gentes) jockeying for position with some headed up and some headed down in status. Trying to get this son or that son a nice stewardship or castellan position, with there also being influence in the city politics as well due to trade or business activities.

All this going on in background. Whether the PKs belong to a major family, minor family, or are outsiders will have to be determined. Along with how actively they opt to play the political game. So I have a lot of minor background documentation and activity that the players might never see - simply some inklings from the local court gossip or the announcement of a few officer appointments.

And the GPC events are obviously going to play havoc with this as well.

Upcoming releases (and my current game) suggest using cavalrymen as first characters, and having knighthood as a reward for excellence--cavalryman being now favored by me instead of miles , which is less player-friendly.
I'd suggest there are no KAP esquires in the Uther Period, since an esquire is a nobleman who has not taken knighthood. Since knighthood is just being established in the Uther Period, it is just more sensible.

Aha, that explains a lot and sounds interesting to say the least. Are they then equites before being reinvented/instated as knights? The transferring of roman cavalrymen and their ideals into the birth of early medieval knighthood should be very enticing!

Cities muster equites


Even if I have 5th ed Pendragon I have translated much of the 4th ed descriptions of the different launds and realms surrounding Salisbury into swedish for easier absorption by my players, but then when I got to Hampshire/Wessex all ground to a halt. The info on this area is so crucial to this period. How easy is the lives for Hampshire-men in those days?

which days?
Uther? Same as anyone one the border of Saxon territory--perilous
Anarchy? Hampshire is overrun by Saxons

Cities muster equites


I see. Thanks for the info.



which days?
Uther? Same as anyone one the border of Saxon territory--perilous
Anarchy? Hampshire is overrun by Saxons


With "those days" I was referring to my plans to start earlier that the recommended year (mentioned above), I will be trying to start from 481 (to -485) with the characters being squires during this time. And then again maybe not...
Maybe I just taking on too much work? I hate being this undecisive!

I am not an unexperienced GM, as I have been running games and scenarios in quite a few different RPGs all through four decades now, beginning in 1985, but maybe I'm laying a trap for myself as I am NOT in any way a KAP veteran (latest GMing of this RPG was 4 years ago and before that in the middle of the 90's, I started the first ones in 1986-87 I think).

And another question I have is this: could one say without being wrong, that overall it's more to the east/northeast of (and also within) Salisbury that the Saxon pressure can be felt? Can I read somewhere about which manors are more threatened than others in Salisbury during the (mentioned) Uther period? Sorry if this has already been answered somewhere!

I don't see a huge problem starting a couple of years earlier. Our current Pendragon game actually started in 503 AD (no typo), stealing liberally from another campaign that was posted online, until we reached the Boy King period (510). No Uther then!

However, I probably wouldn't bother, myself, if you are going to start with grown men in any case. I can see the appeal if you start as squires, to give them a few years to spend before 485 rolls along. I think the decade or so of character development works rather nicely in Uther period (although I have only had one campaign that played through that); it gave the PKs some Glory and experience to step in as the leading lights of Salisbury during the Anarchy, rather than be wet behind the ear newbies. Admittedly, that was my reasoning for starting at 503 in that other campaign, to let the PKs be a bit more experienced during Arthur's early reign. Also, I was aiming for a Badon Blood Bath even then. :P

As for threatened areas, it depends. I'd say the Southeast would be the worst, which is why Caer Du Plain gets built there (at least in our campaign). Test river allowing the Saxon ships to penetrate inland, and after Hampshire falls, they are next door neighbors. The Northeast is restless in our current campaign (due to Levcomagus), but during pre-Boy King period, the Saxon raids roamed pretty much all the way from Caer Du Plain to Sarum's walls on a bad year.

I don't see a huge problem starting a couple of years earlier. Our current Pendragon game actually started in 503 AD (no typo), stealing liberally from another campaign that was posted online, until we reached the Boy King period (510). No Uther then!

However, I probably wouldn't bother, myself, if you are going to start with grown men in any case. I can see the appeal if you start as squires, to give them a few years to spend before 485 rolls along. I think the decade or so of character development works rather nicely in Uther period (although I have only had one campaign that played through that); it gave the PKs some Glory and experience to step in as the leading lights of Salisbury during the Anarchy, rather than be wet behind the ear newbies. Admittedly, that was my reasoning for starting at 503 in that other campaign, to let the PKs be a bit more experienced during Arthur's early reign. Also, I was aiming for a Badon Blood Bath even then. :P


Haha, yes I can imagine! Not the reliable, safe and secure GM the players wanted you to be, eh? Nice going! I like that.
Thanks Morien, it's very reassuring to read about your experiences with this. I'll see what I can carve out of the extensive background material. It's not really IF the material exists, it's more where and in what books I can find it, and if I have it already on my shelves. And if I have the strength to map this out adventure-story wise. I have just come from my own huge rewriting of the RPG Deathwatch adventure trilogy "The Emperor Protects" and are quite exhausted by that.



As for threatened areas, it depends. I'd say the Southeast would be the worst, which is why Caer Du Plain gets built there (at least in our campaign). Test river allowing the Saxon ships to penetrate inland, and after Hampshire falls, they are next door neighbors. The Northeast is restless in our current campaign (due to Levcomagus), but during pre-Boy King period, the Saxon raids roamed pretty much all the way from Caer Du Plain to Sarum's walls on a bad year.


Thanks for the clarifications. When the saxons are next-door neighbors they must be doing raids on a daily basis almost?

Thanks for the clarifications. When the saxons are next-door neighbors they must be doing raids on a daily basis almost?


Again, depends. :) Saxons like extorting tribute better than having to fight for it, same as everyone else. Also, in our Uther+Anarchy campaign, Cerdic was eager to paint himself as a civilized Briton, the heir of High Kings (via Vortigern, of course), the future of hope of cooperation between the Saxons and the Britons. Are not his Gewessi already a mixed bunch of Britons and Saxons, living together? How much better to support Cerdic rather than a barbarian like Aelle? In that campaign, Cerdic was much more after acknowledgement of his position as the next High King than actually raiding, although naturally he'd need tribute to give his warriors if he were to protect Salisbury...

In the first campaign (using non-canon material), Hampshire didn't actually fall all the way until the Battle of Venta Belgarum, but those few years before Arthur got his act together were bad. Wessex was pretty pissed that Salisbury had fought against them in that Battle, and sought to raid as often as possible.

Saxons like extorting tribute better than having to fight for it, same as everyone else.


Ok, so how does such a proclamation of a tribute actually work? Do they send a runner with a message or stride up themselves to ones border and scream it out loud?



Also, in our Uther+Anarchy campaign, Cerdic was eager to paint himself as a civilized Briton, the heir of High Kings (via Vortigern, of course), the future of hope of cooperation between the Saxons and the Britons. Are not his Gewessi already a mixed bunch of Britons and Saxons, living together? How much better to support Cerdic rather than a barbarian like Aelle? In that campaign, Cerdic was much more after acknowledgement of his position as the next High King than actually raiding, although naturally he'd need tribute to give his warriors if he were to protect Salisbury...


Yes, Hampshire seems to be a powder keg just waiting to go off. And Count Daffyd doesn't sound like the leader material the region needs when one reads about him in the Salisbury material. But since the Saxons first appeared on the Britsih isles at the beginning of 5th century, the mix can't be very old? Very interesting though with Cerdic wanting to be more civilized.



In the first campaign (using non-canon material), Hampshire didn't actually fall all the way until the Battle of Venta Belgarum, but those few years before Arthur got his act together were bad. Wessex was pretty pissed that Salisbury had fought against them in that Battle, and sought to raid as often as possible.


By the first campaign, do you mean the Uther period? Or Arthur's first campaign?

Well talking about all this and the tradition of "What Your Character Knows", I'd sure like to have such a write-up for the Uther Period!

The GPC materials are pretty clear about what the general viewpoint is about the Saxons and Gwessi in Salisbury is going to be.

And with the early Saxon settlement they essentially *displaced* the Cymri, so it's not really intermixing. And in the later cases it's displacement or enslavement. The Cymri are not part of the local nobility, they are an underclass. The opposite is essentially true in other areas, and during the reign of Arthur where there are Cymri/other nobility and Saxon peasantry as the lower classes.

With attendant difficulties in the Book of the Manor unless steps are taken to lessen the friction, and the actions of Duke Hervis in Anglia as a potential example of how not to handle things.

And when Cedric turns up Countess Ellen essentially sets the tone there by pointing out that Vortigern, his tribe, and descendants thereof are traitors (to Logres as a Cymric kingdom I guess).

That's not to say that the campaign and players cannot be more in favor of peaceful interaction and habitation with the Saxons and Gwessi, but there is going to be a lot to overcome. History, and a lot of Hate(saxon) passions.

And per taking tribute rather than raiding a leader can get the word out to his court/followers that tribute has been paid and that an area is protected against being raided. Some chafing at this I'm sure, but if he is not in control than it will become clear that it is not worth paying tribute again since the leader is not capable of enforcing the sworn word of granting protection.

And the Saxons are aware of this. There is a specific point in the GPC where King Aelle orders his paymasters to pay off hired knight mercenaries who were inactive during a battle. If he didn't pay he would lose honor for not keeping his word. Plus the realistic fact that if he shorted mercenaries their pay word would get out that he had done so and there would be greater difficulties finding mercenaries in the future. Reputation travels quickly and far.

Ok, so how does such a proclamation of a tribute actually work? Do they send a runner with a message or stride up themselves to ones border and scream it out loud?


Usually via a 'diplomat', a Saxon thane or similar worthy coming to court and issuing an ultimatum: 'Give us tribute, X amount, or we will take it by force!'. The amount of diplomacy and veiled threat varies on the messenger and who it is from. Again, in our Uther+Anarchy campaign, Cerdic was more circumspect than Aelle, for example; he was gathering 'taxes' in order to defend Salisbury from Saxons, you see...



But since the Saxons first appeared on the Britsih isles at the beginning of 5th century, the mix can't be very old? Very interesting though with Cerdic wanting to be more civilized.


Remember Vortigern marrying the Saxon princess Rowena around mid-400s (ah, 450 to be exact)? Cerdic is the fruit of that union, so Cerdic claims the High Kingship by the right of birth. Vortigern WAS elected High King, all proper-like, and that makes the Pendragons usurpers in his view! The Briton contingent of the Gewessi are old Vortigern loyalists and their families, fleeing with Cerdic to the mainland when Ambrosius and Uther defeated Vortigern in the Battle of Snowdon in 468.



By the first campaign, do you mean the Uther period? Or Arthur's first campaign?


Neither. I mean OUR first campaign that started from 503 prior to the publication of GPC. Hence, we deviated from current canon a lot prior to the Boy King, when it comes to Hampshire.

The 'diplomats' in GPC were princes of the various Saxon kingdoms if I am not mistaken.

And another question I have is this: could one say without being wrong, that overall it's more to the east/northeast of (and also within) Salisbury that the Saxon pressure can be felt? Can I read somewhere about which manors are more threatened than others in Salisbury during the (mentioned) Uther period? Sorry if this has already been answered somewhere!

Your call
However, get your head wrapped around the size of the county
Troops march 20 miles per day if they have food
how long does it take a raiding party to cross the whole county?

And another question I have is this: could one say without being wrong, that overall it's more to the east/northeast of (and also within) Salisbury that the Saxon pressure can be felt? Can I read somewhere about which manors are more threatened than others in Salisbury during the (mentioned) Uther period? Sorry if this has already been answered somewhere!

Your call
However, get your head wrapped around the size of the county
Troops march 20 miles per day if they have food
how long does it take a raiding party to cross the whole county?


With a Royal or trade road under their feet, not long!

Which is what makes the castles, fortified manors, and patrols on the better quality roads so vital to maintain.

Though a raider can bypass these if aiming for a weaker target. And I think the raiding tactics do cover whether a force is trying to do a quick hit-and-run over a good route, or attempting to sneak in via a slower and more hidden path.

The GPC materials are pretty clear about what the general viewpoint is about the Saxons and Gwessi in Salisbury is going to be.


Yes! I should've understood as much when the ancestral Hate (Saxons) can be as much as 3D6+6 in starting passion points.
This probably has been asked many times, but does all the passion points of the grandfather/father move on to ones own PK?
As a sidepoint, I really would like to have much more lines for the character history write-up, as they tend to dwindle for just the grandfather's happenings, let alone the father's happenings. But then again, the ancestral history probably should be written on a secondary paper, as in earlier editions. One can only have so much on one character sheet anyway.



And with the early Saxon settlement they essentially *displaced* the Cymri, so it's not really intermixing. And in the later cases it's displacement or enslavement. The Cymri are not part of the local nobility, they are an underclass. The opposite is essentially true in other areas, and during the reign of Arthur where there are Cymri/other nobility and Saxon peasantry as the lower classes.


This is a very important point you take up! The displacement of Cymrics, and they even being driven from the British Isles!
During the Uther era though the displacement couldn't have really begun in the south, could it? As more battles originated in the north against the Picts in the beginning, the displacement must be more acute there initially. But then again, the snowball is certainly rolling fast! Also, is it the clash between the very model of Saxon miltary culture and the Cymric (Roman-influenced) city-centered military culture that spells doom for them (the Cymri) as a resistant people? Maybe this is a too loose question? Sorry if that is the case!



With attendant difficulties in the Book of the Manor unless steps are taken to lessen the friction, and the actions of Duke Hervis in Anglia as a potential example of how not to handle things.


Ok! I'll have to look that one up.



And when Cedric turns up Countess Ellen essentially sets the tone there by pointing out that Vortigern, his tribe, and descendants thereof are traitors (to Logres as a Cymric kingdom I guess).

That's not to say that the campaign and players cannot be more in favor of peaceful interaction and habitation with the Saxons and Gwessi, but there is going to be a lot to overcome. History, and a lot of Hate(saxon) passions.


What do you mean by the frase "turns up"? I am Swedish, and by that rusty on the finer meanings!



And per taking tribute rather than raiding a leader can get the word out to his court/followers that tribute has been paid and that an area is protected against being raided. Some chafing at this I'm sure, but if he is not in control than it will become clear that it is not worth paying tribute again since the leader is not capable of enforcing the sworn word of granting protection.


I did not have the slightest inkling of the fact that it was included in a British liege's qualities, that he was expected to manage the payings of tribute to enemies! Thanks for this info!

Usually via a 'diplomat', a Saxon thane or similar worthy coming to court and issuing an ultimatum: 'Give us tribute, X amount, or we will take it by force!'. The amount of diplomacy and veiled threat varies on the messenger and who it is from. Again, in our Uther+Anarchy campaign, Cerdic was more circumspect than Aelle, for example; he was gathering 'taxes' in order to defend Salisbury from Saxons, you see...


Very important information. Thank you so much for your explanation!



Remember Vortigern marrying the Saxon princess Rowena around mid-400s (ah, 450 to be exact)? Cerdic is the fruit of that union, so Cerdic claims the High Kingship by the right of birth. Vortigern WAS elected High King, all proper-like, and that makes the Pendragons usurpers in his view! The Briton contingent of the Gewessi are old Vortigern loyalists and their families, fleeing with Cerdic to the mainland when Ambrosius and Uther defeated Vortigern in the Battle of Snowdon in 468.


Sounds like the equivalent of "wolves in the fold" of the Cerdic faction.



Neither. I mean OUR first campaign that started from 503 prior to the publication of GPC. Hence, we deviated from current canon a lot prior to the Boy King, when it comes to Hampshire.


Yes, you mentioned that earlier, sorry for the memory glitch!

The 'diplomats' in GPC were princes of the various Saxon kingdoms if I am not mistaken.


Aha, good to know.

Mr. Stafford said:


Your call
However, get your head wrapped around the size of the county
Troops march 20 miles per day if they have food
how long does it take a raiding party to cross the whole county?


Good questions! I'll wrap my head as you say, feels though like headwrapping has been a custom of mine for quite some time!

Oaktree said:


With a Royal or trade road under their feet, not long!

Which is what makes the castles, fortified manors, and patrols on the better quality roads so vital to maintain.

Though a raider can bypass these if aiming for a weaker target. And I think the raiding tactics do cover whether a force is trying to do a quick hit-and-run over a good route, or attempting to sneak in via a slower and more hidden path.


Many thanks for these viewpoints! Yes, I think I'll have to do some mapping (=headwrapping) of the possible Salisbury raiding routes for Saxons. Looks interesting though and can be a strategic nut later for the (then made) knights to bite into!

Living in the US with the "wide open" spaces and modern transportation made the scale and movement speeds in Pendragon confuse me initially. Once I got a better understanding of the scale of a county and the general road conditions (if there was a road) I got a much better understanding of things.

One item to note is in the description of the County of Salisbury in the 5th Ed rules. It covers how most of the knights could reach Sarum in two days or less. So a summons from the lord could collect a fair number of knights at the main city in 4-5 days.

And I think that model roughly holds true for most of the counties. They size about to what their road network would allow a messenger to reach in three days or less. The smaller counties probably have poorer roads, while a county like Lindsey with two stretches of King's Road in it can be more extensive.

Oh, and Cedric "turning up" is simply another way of saying he and his followers invade Hampshire.

Living in the US with the "wide open" spaces and modern transportation made the scale and movement speeds in Pendragon confuse me initially. Once I got a better understanding of the scale of a county and the general road conditions (if there was a road) I got a much better understanding of things.


Same problem here, too much western civilization in the way, although I'm grateful for it.



One item to note is in the description of the County of Salisbury in the 5th Ed rules. It covers how most of the knights could reach Sarum in two days or less. So a summons from the lord could collect a fair number of knights at the main city in 4-5 days."


I've read the list describing the army of Salisbury, but that one (also different from the 4th ed one) doesn't include the knights of the many manors described or named in the player manor list + the other npc ones, does it?



Oh, and Cedric "turning up" is simply another way of saying he and his followers invade Hampshire.


Yes! Of course. I know the expression, but I did the stupid thing of reading these words together: "...when Cedric turns up Countess Ellen..." which for me meant something like he was "Turning up Countess Ellen". Like I said, stupid.

I know of no official list of the knights and manors in any detail for any county, Salisbury or elsewhere. The manor list in the core rules covers enough "available" manors for the PKs, but it is clearly not a complete list. Especially considering that a lot of the county lands are probably demense lands of the Earl being run by stewards and needed to generate income to support the household, army, and other extensive financial requirements the Earl has.

I had a personal one for Lambor when I was running a 3rd Edition campaign long ago. And I am in the midst of assembling such a list for the County of Dorset to use in a campaign to start shortly. Using information from The Book of the Manor for roughing out the value and distribution of the villages and towns. And the higher value market towns will generally be associated with a higher office which needs the extra income, or owned by the Church or Crown. (For instance the large town of Wareham is gifted as demense to the regional magistrate (essentially a banneret) whose seat is at the castle there.

A lot of work to maintain internal consistency for something that you could probably ad hoc as needed with a few die rolls or GM decisions and have grow from your notes as things proceed. But putting it together to run in background is part of the fun in my book. But part of the "local" flavor and adventure will be interacting with the detail here as a break from the larger framework of what is going on in Logres at large.

About Saxon raiding routes and such.

Something to consider is the nature of the forests separating the counties. Much of the region outside of the downs and chalky uplands (such as the Salisbury Plain) is going to be heavily forested except where it has been cleared for settlement. No roads except for poor ones connecting villages, and probably running along the rivers for the most part. Otherwise, it's tracks, paths, and the ability to get lost.

Poor terrain for cavalry, which is probably beneficial to a Saxon raiding party that will be on foot.

However, the locals (which could include the PKs depending on where their manors are and how long they have lived there) would probably have some passing familiarity with the nuances of the local woods. Thus knowing the better lookout points, ambush sites, etc. (Page 22 of the GPC has a list of the main forests. Note that some of them have massive negative modifiers for navigating through them easily.)

And, of course, there might be things other than Saxons about in the nearby forest. ;D

I know of no official list of the knights and manors in any detail for any county, Salisbury or elsewhere. The manor list in the core rules covers enough "available" manors for the PKs, but it is clearly not a complete list. Especially considering that a lot of the county lands are probably demense lands of the Earl being run by stewards and needed to generate income to support the household, army, and other extensive financial requirements the Earl has.

I had a personal one for Lambor when I was running a 3rd Edition campaign long ago. And I am in the midst of assembling such a list for the County of Dorset to use in a campaign to start shortly. Using information from The Book of the Manor for roughing out the value and distribution of the villages and towns. And the higher value market towns will generally be associated with a higher office which needs the extra income, or owned by the Church or Crown. (For instance the large town of Wareham is gifted as demense to the regional magistrate (essentially a banneret) whose seat is at the castle there.

A lot of work to maintain internal consistency for something that you could probably ad hoc as needed with a few die rolls or GM decisions and have grow from your notes as things proceed. But putting it together to run in background is part of the fun in my book. But part of the "local" flavor and adventure will be interacting with the detail here as a break from the larger framework of what is going on in Logres at large.


Oaktree, you shoud receive glory for answers like these! It's all an interesting read. How do you keep track of all this info? Are you one of these people that can store lots and lots of minute information in your brain all the time? I am not, I'm sorry to say. Eidetic memory, I think it's called. Do you have that?
I understand the impossibilty of having an absolute list of all manors in an area, and it's not needed either, but an overall balance calculaton of the extra manpower from manors should perhaps be included. But as always it's easy to say, but not easy to do. And I am not complaining, I think Mr. Stafford and everyone else contributing to this game is doing a super-job!

I have for decades tried to put together my own BRP-based RPG as well as my own world, but as I am only one person it goes slow, very slow. And I am not famous for my energetic personality side. KAP is for me the pinnacle of BRP evolution.



About Saxon raiding routes and such.

Something to consider is the nature of the forests separating the counties. Much of the region outside of the downs and chalky uplands (such as the Salisbury Plain) is going to be heavily forested except where it has been cleared for settlement. No roads except for poor ones connecting villages, and probably running along the rivers for the most part. Otherwise, it's tracks, paths, and the ability to get lost.


The "good roads" on some of the maps, do you know if that is the same as "roman roads"? The ability to get lost is always welcomed by the gamemaster, who stands ready with faerie encounters. I hope my player characters gets lost real soon!
The chalky uplands is where a lot of these great figures been made from bared ground, I have to get pictures of them. And I have to travel there IRL, last time I was in the UK were in 2002, in Tewkesbury, Cheltenham. Not too far from there.



Poor terrain for cavalry, which is probably beneficial to a Saxon raiding party that will be on foot.

However, the locals (which could include the PKs depending on where their manors are and how long they have lived there) would probably have some passing familiarity with the nuances of the local woods. Thus knowing the better lookout points, ambush sites, etc. (Page 22 of the GPC has a list of the main forests. Note that some of them have massive negative modifiers for navigating through them easily.)

And, of course, there might be things other than Saxons about in the nearby forest. ;D


Yes, the movement-by-woods must be a Saxon speciality I imagine. But then my brain comes up with the question: what does the faerie people think of Wotan worshippers trudging through their realm? Same as any non-faerie wanderers? And it possibly depends on whether they are of the Seelie or Unseelie Court? The Saxons should be just as affected/scared by making fey encounters, eh? Perhaps the native people of Britain can use that in a defensive way, if they're Pagan believers?

A couple of quick replies to add to the richness that is in thisw thread




I know of no official list of the knights and manors in any detail for any county, Salisbury or elsewhere.


I have never made a definitive list, not shall I
I do support the efforts of others to do so
but I have never needed it in all my campaigns


A lot of work to maintain internal consistency for something that you could probably ad hoc as needed with a few die rolls or GM decisions and have grow from your notes as things proceed.

Agreed
I find it difficult enough to keep track of pepole who the PCs have met
and who are important
without trying to keep track of everyone inconsequential


But putting it together to run in background is part of the fun in my book. But part of the "local" flavor and adventure will be interacting with the detail here as a break from the larger framework of what is going on in Logres at large.

and I've finally closing in on the data that I feel is important for this
the major lords
a list of barons in 485
important monasteries
and how court works


The "good roads" on some of the maps, do you know if that is the same as "roman roads"?

they are not the same




Poor terrain for cavalry, which is probably beneficial to a Saxon raiding party that will be on foot.

Yes, the movement-by-woods must be a Saxon speciality I imagine.

British infantry are every bit as competent
and as you pointed out
familiar with the territory


But then my brain comes up with the question: what does the faerie people think of Wotan worshipers trudging through their realm? Same as any non-faerie wanderers?

people are people, no matter which deities they worship
except for the Christians whose attitude is very different


And it possibly depends on whether they are of the Seelie or Unseelie Court?

Nah
they both feel the same about humans

I have never made a definitive list, not shall I
I do support the efforts of others to do so
but I have never needed it in all my campaigns


And I am definately not demanding one. Just as you say
it is not needed. But perhaps just a quick balance calculation
of all the extra knights that come from the non-included manors?
I mean when looking at the total military manpower of Salisbury.



Agreed
I find it difficult enough to keep track of pepole who the PCs have met
and who are important
without trying to keep track of everyone inconsequential


Yes, I see that's going to be a central work load, but then again not
important to be super specific.



and I've finally closing in on the data that I feel is important for this
the major lords
a list of barons in 485
important monasteries
and how court works


Much needed info, thanks! I look forward to reading it, and it almost
make me wanting to wait until it arrives.



they are not the same


Good to know.



British infantry are every bit as competent
and as you pointed out
familiar with the territory


I understand. And I suspected others where just as good
moving in wooded areas. I don't know why I singled out the Saxons...



people are people, no matter which deities they worship
except for the Christians whose attitude is very different




Nah
they both feel the same about humans


Thanks!

In my recently started campaign set in Salisbury, I populated the county with named NPC knights using Table 3-1 on KAP pg 61 and the family knights of all the players.

I used an excel sheet to make some random numbers and fiddled around a bit, with the result now that Sir So and So's cousin is part of the Earl's Retinue, an uncle is in Devizes, a younger brother in Du Plain, etc. I've given each player their list so that as they travel about the county they have a bit more of a connection to things.

'Other Business' I made as liaisons to the surrounding counties, Hampshire, Dorset, Jagent, one for Uther, etc. so these knights are back and forth with important messages constantly and can be met on the road here and there.

With other NPCs both from the book and of my own creation I have over 2/3 of the 75 knights listed with 'names', and 1/2 of these have family connections to players.

It makes things a bit more real and provides some motivation when say the player with a Love (Family) of 20 and 10 family knights (! lucky rolling) receives some news, a messenger from Du Plain, "Saxon raiders, the township is under attack!" passions enflamed, etc. etc. that's the idea anyway.

In my recently started campaign set in Salisbury, I populated the county with named NPC knights using Table 3-1 on KAP pg 61 and the family knights of all the players.

I used an excel sheet to make some random numbers and fiddled around a bit, with the result now that Sir So and So's cousin is part of the Earl's Retinue, an uncle is in Devizes, a younger brother in Du Plain, etc. I've given each player their list so that as they travel about the county they have a bit more of a connection to things.

'Other Business' I made as liaisons to the surrounding counties, Hampshire, Dorset, Jagent, one for Uther, etc. so these knights are back and forth with important messages constantly and can be met on the road here and there.

With other NPCs both from the book and of my own creation I have over 2/3 of the 75 knights listed with 'names', and 1/2 of these have family connections to players.

It makes things a bit more real and provides some motivation when say the player with a Love (Family) of 20 and 10 family knights (! lucky rolling) receives some news, a messenger from Du Plain, "Saxon raiders, the township is under attack!" passions enflamed, etc. etc. that's the idea anyway.


Wow, and then again wow! I am just totally astonished of how good this idea is and also very sad that I have never built up my understanding of Excel! Interesting to say the least, and to be a fly on the wall when you play your sessions with this system is a no 1 wish. That is very much as you say it "...makes things a bit more real and provides some motivation".

I just wonder if my ring rusty Pendragon-brain would be up for the job to keep this info running like a clock. I'd sure like to try though. Please keep me (us all here) updated how your system works out.

I'm actually putting something similar together for my County of Dorset set-up.

My details are based around three items:
1. A map. Started as a relief map of Dorset. I blurred the borders since it generally is not clear where Dorset ends and Hampshire or Salisbury begins. Mainly heavy forest as discussed earlier. The rivers are more obvious boundaries - Hampshire has claim to the River Avon for instance. The map document has a number of layers (which can be toggled on and off for displaying different sets of information; a reference grid (each square is about 2.5 miles on a side); road net and large towns (market towns and cities); area place names (large towns, forests, vales, etc.). I am not marking every manor/location on this map. Not enough room, and a grid reference should be enough since I can get the nearest market town, river, etc. from that. If a PK lives there I can probably put together a little local map for them to show the neighbors in greater detail.

2. A spreadsheet of locations. Name, type, grid reference, some notes, and also indication of owner and value (if manor or town). The last part is duplicated for four periods (485-499, 500-515, 516-530, and 531-end). This allows for a manor's default owner and value to vary over the campaign. It can gain value, lose value, change owner, or potentially be obliterated. Have used random table of my own devising for doing this. And this is simply background detail - if a PK gets ownership the automatic changes are superseded by standard game mechanics. An example of this would be a hamlet in the 1st period getting a Benedictine priory in a later period which will increase its base value and change the ownership to "Church". (This spreadsheet mainly came from me wanting to confirm the economics of the county - e.g. are there enough manors and towns here to generate the income to supply the necessary knights for the county as well as maintain the nobility?)

3. A spreadsheet of the major families and personalities in the county. This is the basis for the county political and social situation. Each family will have its elder listed (who probably sits on the county council), the family's rank in the pecking order, the relative size of the family, and something indicating their political stance (conservative - moderate - liberal, and how passive / aggressive they are about the stance - using playing card values to represent this; 7 diamonds is a fairly aggressive moderate liberal.) Will also list the major offices held by the family; e.g. what their piece of the county "pie" consists of. And some miscellaneous notes about their specific interests, feuds, etc.

The personalities list will be the rough NPC values for the major players. Name, family, notable stats, etc.

("Modern" political terms are being used in a relative sense. A "liberal" family is maybe one that is just more open to easing some society strictures as compared to a more conservative/traditional family. Like allowing a Cymri to potentially sit on the County Council.)

That will be topped off with some mechanism for the NPCs aging or dying out. Some by direct GM fiat to drive events. Others to random chance. I assume that PKs will be members of some of these families and events will thrust them into prominence and leadership. Others might belong to lesser families, but the situation will be fluid at times.

Gosh I haven't gone quite as in depth as oaktree has!

You wouldn't have to use excel Derek, make up a list of the family knights that you have available to distribute from your players rolls, arbitrarily assign them across the county, or let the players choose.

Collaboration and involvement with their family members and their histories I think helps in building a sense of belonging to the county - which is my goal, I want the players to have some attachment to those 1d6-2 Middle-Aged random knights they rolled in character generation, and that they so lovingly placed in Devizes castle to be close to their manor...

so that when I kill them off they are suitably upset ;D

I'm busy rolling up random location value changes and it is already giving me ideas for tidbits of local history. :D

A particular grid section gets hard hit (2 manors cease to exist for a period) and I know that a local court entry for some year will mention a particularly heavy pillaging done, or possibly something else that caused an area to be abandoned. :(

Some gossip from the old biddies about Sir So-and-So having excessively good harvests. Maybe Lady So-and-so is a witch! :o

The manor that I know is right on the Dorset-Salisbury border has a rough history. So someone has worked it over a few times due to its somewhat precarious location. :P

I'm not tracking specific manor ownership so far for the most part. Just notating that it's held for demense value by the praetor, by a vassal, or one of the district magistrates to support their operations. And a certain percentage will also be Church owned (sect identified in notes), Royal land, or even by a foreign lord.

I'm actually putting something similar together for my County of Dorset set-up.

My details are based around three items:
1. A map. Started as a relief map of Dorset. I blurred the borders since it generally is not clear where Dorset ends and Hampshire or Salisbury begins. Mainly heavy forest as discussed earlier. The rivers are more obvious boundaries - Hampshire has claim to the River Avon for instance. The map document has a number of layers (which can be toggled on and off for displaying different sets of information; a reference grid (each square is about 2.5 miles on a side); road net and large towns (market towns and cities); area place names (large towns, forests, vales, etc.). I am not marking every manor/location on this map. Not enough room, and a grid reference should be enough since I can get the nearest market town, river, etc. from that. If a PK lives there I can probably put together a little local map for them to show the neighbors in greater detail.

2. A spreadsheet of locations. Name, type, grid reference, some notes, and also indication of owner and value (if manor or town). The last part is duplicated for four periods (485-499, 500-515, 516-530, and 531-end). This allows for a manor's default owner and value to vary over the campaign. It can gain value, lose value, change owner, or potentially be obliterated. Have used random table of my own devising for doing this. And this is simply background detail - if a PK gets ownership the automatic changes are superseded by standard game mechanics. An example of this would be a hamlet in the 1st period getting a Benedictine priory in a later period which will increase its base value and change the ownership to "Church". (This spreadsheet mainly came from me wanting to confirm the economics of the county - e.g. are there enough manors and towns here to generate the income to supply the necessary knights for the county as well as maintain the nobility?)

3. A spreadsheet of the major families and personalities in the county. This is the basis for the county political and social situation. Each family will have its elder listed (who probably sits on the county council), the family's rank in the pecking order, the relative size of the family, and something indicating their political stance (conservative - moderate - liberal, and how passive / aggressive they are about the stance - using playing card values to represent this; 7 diamonds is a fairly aggressive moderate liberal.) Will also list the major offices held by the family; e.g. what their piece of the county "pie" consists of. And some miscellaneous notes about their specific interests, feuds, etc.

The personalities list will be the rough NPC values for the major players. Name, family, notable stats, etc.

("Modern" political terms are being used in a relative sense. A "liberal" family is maybe one that is just more open to easing some society strictures as compared to a more conservative/traditional family. Like allowing a Cymri to potentially sit on the County Council.)

That will be topped off with some mechanism for the NPCs aging or dying out. Some by direct GM fiat to drive events. Others to random chance. I assume that PKs will be members of some of these families and events will thrust them into prominence and leadership. Others might belong to lesser families, but the situation will be fluid at times.


This is all very good too! I must say, I'm astonished how much work you guys lay down on your gamemastering! But, as every successful theater director, if you want it to go smoothly - you plan it down to every last detail. I think being a good gamemaster sometimes very much coincides with how theaters prepare bfore their plays. And that's what I want to do too, but I'm not all that well versed in Pendragon gaming just yet.

In quite a lot of other RPGs I can go through it confidently, drawing sketches of all the main characters, draw up some extra detailed maps of locations, perhaps rewrite portions of the scenario, prepare lists for adversaries/helpers, also paint some figures/miniatures that I'll use in the game and even use some sound effects/music for one or two important scenes. That's almost standard procedure for me, atleast when I run adventures I like a lot!

I am also (according to some of my player friends) quite adept at roleplaying different npcs and moods of these people, but I've never been a good number cruncher and speed-reader of rules. Rules I want as simple as possible, without losing game system/setting coherency. And I feel Pendragon is just that, easy and just complex enough not to interfere with ongoing play.
But I AM rusty from years of KAP neglect. So, that's why I've never thought in terms of spread-sheets and Excel.

Usually, when I need to build a situation, it's enough with a story 'skeleton' and then from that I wing it! I've found since my inception into this hobby in 1984, that winging is more satisfactory that detail planning - for me that is! If I had a 'rules head' in my own words, I could probably make wondrous preparations. I envy you guys who has such minds.

Gosh I haven't gone quite as in depth as oaktree has!

You wouldn't have to use excel Derek, make up a list of the family knights that you have available to distribute from your players rolls, arbitrarily assign them across the county, or let the players choose.

Collaboration and involvement with their family members and their histories I think helps in building a sense of belonging to the county - which is my goal, I want the players to have some attachment to those 1d6-2 Middle-Aged random knights they rolled in character generation, and that they so lovingly placed in Devizes castle to be close to their manor...

so that when I kill them off they are suitably upset ;D


Hahaha! That's a glorious attitude Vedrenne!

Yep, you're right (atleast in my case), I think I'll take your advice and talk the players through what relatives they would want in other parts of Salisbury (and outside perhaps). The goals must be that, exactly. Participation, and by that recognition.
Thank you Vedrenne. Sound pieces of advice. I am going to start a new thread, and describe how I've planned the various parts of my players character generation, from my head and notes. The day for generation has been set to 17th of May.

I'm busy rolling up random location value changes and it is already giving me ideas for tidbits of local history. :D

A particular grid section gets hard hit (2 manors cease to exist for a period) and I know that a local court entry for some year will mention a particularly heavy pillaging done, or possibly something else that caused an area to be abandoned. :(

Some gossip from the old biddies about Sir So-and-So having excessively good harvests. Maybe Lady So-and-so is a witch! :o

The manor that I know is right on the Dorset-Salisbury border has a rough history. So someone has worked it over a few times due to its somewhat precarious location. :P

I'm not tracking specific manor ownership so far for the most part. Just notating that it's held for demense value by the praetor, by a vassal, or one of the district magistrates to support their operations. And a certain percentage will also be Church owned (sect identified in notes), Royal land, or even by a foreign lord.


Sounds excellent. I'd like to read about it play though, I mean the consequences it has on the PKs situation. Do the players have an inkling on how much background work you do for them?

Once things roll I'll see how much gets used and how the players interact with it.

I think I do complex background develop in advance is for two reasons:
First, I like the environment to hang together coherently in my mind. The lord has the resources for this many knights. These places are fortified for logical reasons - and will have knights available to deal with a situation. etc. etc. Plus I find it "fun" to flesh these things out for my own edification.

Second, I think one of my GM weaknesses is "winging it". So I like the supporting materials on hand to aid in decisions. Though I am also aware that PKs are going to go off in odd directions, make odd decisions, and thus are not to be controlled. So, in essence I am also building out details of the sandbox the knights will be playing in. The clockwork will be ticking in the background and the tableau changing as the larger story arcs run their course. (Though these are not cast in stone - if the PKs opt to be involved I expect there will be changes in the courses.*)

* - I have a political succession issue challenge worked out. Once presented, I have no idea how it will play out. Any of the factions could potentially come out ahead given PK actions and support. Though I also have a "default" result if the PKs choose to remain neutral or interested in alternate activities.

Second, I think one of my GM weaknesses is "winging it". So I like the supporting materials on hand to aid in decisions. Though I am also aware that PKs are going to go off in odd directions, make odd decisions, and thus are not to be controlled. So, in essence I am also building out details of the sandbox the knights will be playing in. The clockwork will be ticking in the background and the tableau changing as the larger story arcs run their course. (Though these are not cast in stone - if the PKs opt to be involved I expect there will be changes in the courses.*)


You do not strike me as a gamemaster in need of any winging, due to your extensive planning, so don't you worry. It's always interesting to have your own made political map, which I'm very jealous about! The clock that is ticking as you say and keeping track of that in an effective way is kind of a problem for me. The risk of me remembering stuff too late, and then being forced to back track is a dangerous possibility, unfortunately!



* - I have a political succession issue challenge worked out. Once presented, I have no idea how it will play out. Any of the factions could potentially come out ahead given PK actions and support. Though I also have a "default" result if the PKs choose to remain neutral or interested in alternate activities.


That sounds really smart to have prepared if (or rather when) the PKs decide to change their involvement. Do you generate political change very much out of the various peoples traits and passions or more from what their political agendas are?

You do not strike me as a gamemaster in need of any winging, due to your extensive planning, so don't you worry. It's always interesting to have your own made political map, which I'm very jealous about! The clock that is ticking as you say and keeping track of that in an effective way is kind of a problem for me. The risk of me remembering stuff too late, and then being forced to back track is a dangerous possibility, unfortunately!


Well, given the framework of the GPC there with the year to year briefings it will not be too hard to tack on the local politics bits - probably make that winter court intrigue with the Camelot-level stuff being spring court. And the details in-county will only come into play when appropriate - so hopefully I won't forget what applies!



That sounds really smart to have prepared if (or rather when) the PKs decide to change their involvement. Do you generate political change very much out of the various peoples traits and passions or more from what their political agendas are?


It's going to be both, with a bit of GM fiat thrown in. This started as me wanting an alternative local challenge for the Anarchy Phase to the Salisbury "we have Countess with infant future Earl, will you support them?". It ballooned from there as I was deciding how the County of Dorset was put together and run, and how that would deal with my alternate situation. I will need to work out what the conflict levels are of the family-leading NPCs on whether their passions may override their desire to see to the family's long term interests. And how nuanced their responses might be.

The ones that get you will not be the ones that twirl mustaches and are obviously your enemy. It will be the subtle one that lets you lead that heroic suicide charge to save the county. ;D

Forgive me Oaktree for not answering another good thread reply from you! I've quite frankly been going through the Pendragon planning a bit and also written a few other replies myself in other threads.

I am nevertheless very impressed with the systematic mapping of internal politics you've come up with for your campaign!
And I'm also very keen to hear how the future outcome will be from all this. Please keep up the good work!