Hi

I have been trying to find a discussion, that I viewed on this board in the last couple of months, in regards to Glory and consequently Quality of Knight
Greg posted a hint at an extra tier of Quality of Knighthood, above an Extraordinary knight, that he has been considering

Alas I can't seem to find this post (or did I dream this?)

I see in other posts, GM's have listed the next tier above Extraordinary as being Legendary but there isn't anything that I have been able to find in my research that states this in any KAP book

Is this a house rule or if not where is it listed please?

If this is a house rule, what are people's thoughts on what amount of Glory would qualify for Legendary?

Should there be another tier between Extraordinary and Legendary?
If so at what amount of Glory and what would you call it?

Or should there be another tier above Legendary? (perhaps called Paragon?)
If so at what amount of Glory would you suggest?

I understand that these levels should be out of the scope of normal PK's (especially if there was another tier above Legendary, reserved for such worthies as Arthur, Lancelot and Gawaine) however it would be a neat carrot on a stick for PK's to strive for ;)

We have a PK that is currently an Extraordianary knight and he has posed the question of "Is there another tier above extraordinary?"
We are currently in the Tournament phase so he still has plenty of game time left to gain Glory

Btw I love the discussions on these boards in regards to the rules supporting the literature and the dilemmas that other
folk come across during their games (and how these problems are resolved)

Thanks in advance
Jeff

It doesn't -really- matter, since there are no obvious advantages on being on the next tier. Other than the GM stating what that Glory amount means in shorthand.

That being said, I'd be tempted to place the Legendary Glory at 16000. This ensures that it would be darned hard to reach for most PKs, and indeed, you'd have only a few Round Table Knights at that level, too. The really big names would qualify, like Arthur, Lancelot, Gawaine, Lamorak, Tristan... And that might be it. Well, maybe Galahad, but he is a guy I am very hesitant to even have in my campaign.

I don't think there is a need for a tier in between or afterwards. But if I were to have a Paragon tier, I would naturally peg it at 32000. :)

The way I usually explain the tiers to my players:

Ordinary: the average (young) knight who has not been doing much with his life yet. The rank-and-file.

Notable: the older, experienced knights whose opinions carry weight in the county council. Alternatively, young, heroic knights who have completed some big adventures or are otherwise noteworthy.

Famous: the local heroes, leading men on the county (as far as Glory is concerned). Also known in neighboring counties.

Extraordinary: the county champion, whose fame has spread across the kingdom.

Since you break from Ordinary to Notable so quickly, it is easy to see that most PKs don't stay Ordinary for long. The same tends to be true for NPKs, too, if you don't rein in the marriage glory, or if you have lots of battles. However, if the NPK just sits on his fundament, then he might stay an ordinary knight quite long. Lets see... 16 for one famous trait, 6 for land, and lets say 28 for various activities during the year (witnessing events, performing at court, etc) for a total of 50 glory / year. If he starts with 1250 Glory, he will need 15 years to become Notable, making him a Middle-Aged Knight. The counterargument would be that the ordinary NPKs have no famous traits, are probably household knights without lands, and seldom perform in court for a total of maybe 10 per year, and hence would stay 'Ordinary' for the entirety of their careers. I tend to like NPKs with at least one Famous Trait, since it helps to individualize them more. On the other hand, merely participating in the Pentecost tournament is good for 30 Glory per year, and the implication from the numbers of participants is that a good majority of the knights do participate.

I would actually be tempted to mess up the tiers a bit, making the first level 'Unremarkable' or some such (Sir Who?). Ordinary would be 2000 - 3999, and would comprise the great majority of the knights: if you assume something like 1000 in marriage glory either in one marriage or two, + participation in one bigger battle and then yearly glory, you'd still probably be in the 3000s. Notable would then really be notable, people with high traits/passions, rich, lots of experience in adventure & war, etc, Glory 4000 - 7999. This would make Famous 8000+, for the people who have really earned that label.

Granted, that is mainly semantics, fiddling with the labels rather than actually changing anything.

Hi

Thanks for your views and I do apprerciate your assistance

My thoughts were the same in relation to Legendary and then Paragon levels at 16,000 and 32,000 respectively

Then I found this on Greg's website as I was looking around

Can anyone advise what edition of KAP it was when Greg wrote or posted this on his website please?

Glory Levels

The basic Glory levels were omitted from the basic rule book. Here they are, expanded to include the levels that really successful player knights reach. (This table is derived from a similar example developed by DKPseude at the WW Pendragon Forum..

0 Glory = non-nobles. Only noble men and women have Glory
Less than 1000: Squire, esquire, maid in waiting, page, etc.
1000: A Knight.
2000: “Respected,” having proven himself through deeds his peers.
4000: “Notable,” known by all in his homeland region (Logres, Cambria, etc.), and one of the best in his Lord's service.
8000: “Famous,” known throughout all in Britain, one of the best in the land, stands equal to a Round Table Knight if not a member, and sits at the High Table in any court save Camelot.
16,000: “Extraordinary,” known throughout Western Europe. Saxons landing fresh on the beaches of Britain and ambassadors from Rome have already heard of his prowess in battle.
32,000: “World Renown,” known by from Iceland to Babylonia. A character visiting distant Constantinople or Alexandria will find words of his deeds have preceded him.
Compare that to Average

Ordinary knights, without the motivation, luck or oversight that a player knight has, naturally get less Glory. How fast is their advancement? Starting player knights are vassals, and I’ll use of them as the comparison. Knights start with 1000 Glory. Regular Annual Glory: One ordinary event (10), 3 Traits over 15 (50), Manor (6) = 66 One-time Events, over lifetime: Marry (500), witness great events, (25x4), 3 small battles (300), Tournaments, hunts, etc. (100) = 1000.

I will assume a lifetime of 45 years as a knight (i.e. dies at age 65), or 45x66 = 2970 + 1000 = 3970, which I’ll call 4000.

So the average knight dies with 5000 Glory, Notable in his home region. He would have become “Proven” at around age 40.

I think this is excellent and a really good indication of what Greg was trying to achieve with Glory and how it effects the PK setting wise and the NPK's attitudes towards then in general

Cheers
Jeff

Huh. Funny convergence. Of course, I have read Greg's website before, so could be that I was subconsciously influenced. Or simply a case of great minds think alike. :P

Given that Greg is mentioning the missing Glory table from the basic rule book in that page, I would assume that he means 5th Edition. I think that was corrected in 5.1 Edition.

The table you seek is on p. 222 of KAP 5.1

It has six levels. "Extraordinary" is 16,000. "Legendary" is 32,000.