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View Full Version : Question For Greg: Crit vs Crit With Mismatched Weapons



silburnl
05-09-2012, 10:25 AM
This is an edge case of the Tink, Tink, Boom situation as discussed here (http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=1176.0).

Two combatants meet with sufficiently high effective skills that a crit vs crit tied resolution is the only outcome - the GPC rule for tied crits is in force, so the expectation is that they will chip away at each other until one of them drops below their unconsciousness threshold.

BUT they are using mismatched weapons (sword vs non-sword or greatsword vs sword) and so the rule for tied resolution effects on weapons kicks in and the inferior weapon is broken on the first round. Knight #1 generously steps back and lets his opponent rearm, then proceeds to smash that weapon to splinters on the second pass.

Rinse. Repeat.

Is this the design intent of the RAW? If not, then what is the suggested resolution?

Regards
Luke

simonh
05-09-2012, 02:24 PM
I thought swords only broke non-swords on a tied roll - i.e. both rolled the same number (and both succeeded or both criticaled). See 'Lost Weapons' on P 119.

Simon Hibbs

Greg Stafford
05-09-2012, 03:53 PM
This is an edge case of the Tink, Tink, Boom situation as discussed here (http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=1176.0).

Edge case? I'm not sure what that means
I thought the rules are clear in this


Two combatants meet with sufficiently high effective skills that a crit vs crit tied resolution is the only outcome -

Only outcome? So they both have skills of 39+?


the GPC rule for tied crits is in force, so the expectation is that they will chip away at each other until one of them drops below their unconsciousness threshold.
BUT they are using mismatched weapons (sword vs non-sword or greatsword vs sword) and so the rule for tied resolution effects on weapons kicks in and the inferior weapon is broken on the first round. Knight #1 generously steps back and lets his opponent rearm, then proceeds to smash that weapon to splinters on the second pass.

That is pretty clear


Rinse. Repeat.
Is this the design intent of the RAW? If not, then what is the suggested resolution?

Yes, this is the intent
What is the problem here?
I do not have an issue with this supposed "problem"
I've experimented with many possible alternatives

I watch the gyrations of people trying to find an alternative with something between curiosity and bemusement

silburnl
05-09-2012, 04:37 PM
I thought swords only broke non-swords on a tied roll - i.e. both rolled the same number (and both succeeded or both criticaled). See 'Lost Weapons' on P 119.

Crits are a 'logical 20' though. So if you have a crit vs crit produced by high skill these are sensu strictu tied rolls.

Regards
Luke

silburnl
05-09-2012, 07:22 PM
This is an edge case of the Tink, Tink, Boom situation as discussed here (http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=1176.0).

Edge case? I'm not sure what that means

Sorry, this is the software tester in me coming out. An edge case (aka corner case) is a weird, convoluted combination of circumstances where several general rules might interact to produce a strange outcome. I fully concede this what I'm talking about is quite a marginal situation, but it's something that came up in game and I thought it would be useful to get some feedback.





Two combatants meet with sufficiently high effective skills that a crit vs crit tied resolution is the only outcome -

Only outcome? So they both have skills of 39+?

In the game where it came up, it was actually effective skills around 35 (passions fired up, various other situational mods in effect etc) so there was actually a fairly substantial chance of a 'crit vs success' game ender, but I didn't want to confuse things in the example.





the GPC rule for tied crits is in force, so the expectation is that they will chip away at each other until one of them drops below their unconsciousness threshold.
BUT they are using mismatched weapons (sword vs non-sword or greatsword vs sword) and so the rule for tied resolution effects on weapons kicks in and the inferior weapon is broken on the first round. Knight #1 generously steps back and lets his opponent rearm, then proceeds to smash that weapon to splinters on the second pass.

That is pretty clear


Rinse. Repeat.
Is this the design intent of the RAW? If not, then what is the suggested resolution?

Yes, this is the intent
What is the problem here?
I do not have an issue with this supposed "problem"


The problem as I see it is two fold.

Firstly that the rate of ties that trigger the weapon breakage special for swords and greatswords is 5% when effective skill is below 20 but if you interpret the 'all crits are treated as a roll of 20' convention to mean that a 'crit vs crit' result triggers the weapon breakage special for swords then the percentage of outcomes where a weapon breaks starts to rise as soon as effective skill goes above 20 (12% of combat rounds if both are skill 25, 32% if both are skill 30, 65% if both are skill 35) until you get to the silly case I outlined above where every combat exchange ends with a broken weapon for the poor schmuck who isn't using the trumping weapon. This is the troublesome point that I'm seeking clarification on with respect to the design intent of the rules - should the GPC variant 'tied crit' result (1d3 damage to each combatant) which starts to predominate at high skill levels be so tightly coupled to the triggering of the 'weapon break' special?

Secondly you have the impacts on the setting that would flow from the weapon breakage becoming so common - thus Greatsword guys will tend to dominate in the high skill domain once greatswords become available (there's a parallel domination effect for Sword guys before greatswords become available of course, but I don't view this as particularly problematic since swords are the default weapon for the setting). The only way Sword guy can hope to eke out a win in my extreme scenario is if he burns through a dozen or so swords while he nickels and dimes his opponent down to unconsciousness (and this relies upon Greatsword guy to be cooperative and let him rearm from his squire's bag o'swords every other round, which isn't going to happen of course - so basically Sword guy concedes the match or gets his head chopped off).

The limitation on this 'Greatsword Gambit' is that you need to get a separate weapon skill up to a fairly high level in order to be able to employ it; however Saxons get to short circuit this since they can use all great weapons with equal facility via their cultural skill of '2-handed Weapons'. So this implies that Saxon knights will dominate the high end duelling arena in the latter stages of the campaign, at least until the non-Saxons have worked up some decent Greatsword skills to counter the weapon breakage special effect or knightly society puts conventions in place that label 'Greatsword vs Sword' as an unchivalrous match or some such.

Regards
Luke

Skarpskytten
05-09-2012, 08:12 PM
The problem as I see it is two fold.

Firstly that the rate of ties that trigger the weapon breakage special for swords and greatswords is 5% when effective skill is below 20 but if you interpret the 'all crits are treated as a roll of 20' convention to mean that a 'crit vs crit' result triggers the weapon breakage special for swords then the percentage of outcomes where a weapon breaks starts to rise as soon as effective skill goes above 20 (12% of combat rounds if both are skill 25, 32% if both are skill 30, 65% if both are skill 35) until you get to the silly case I outlined above where every combat exchange ends with a broken weapon for the poor schmuck who isn't using the trumping weapon. This is the troublesome point that I'm seeking clarification on with respect to the design intent of the rules - should the GPC variant 'tied crit' result (1d3 damage to each combatant) which starts to predominate at high skill levels be so tightly coupled to the triggering of the 'weapon break' special?

Secondly you have the impacts on the setting that would flow from the weapon breakage becoming so common - thus Greatsword guys will tend to dominate in the high skill domain once greatswords become available (there's a parallel domination effect for Sword guys before greatswords become available of course, but I don't view this as particularly problematic since swords are the default weapon for the setting). The only way Sword guy can hope to eke out a win in my extreme scenario is if he burns through a dozen or so swords while he nickels and dimes his opponent down to unconsciousness (and this relies upon Greatsword guy to be cooperative and let him rearm from his squire's bag o'swords every other round, which isn't going to happen of course - so basically Sword guy concedes the match or gets his head chopped off).

The limitation on this 'Greatsword Gambit' is that you need to get a separate weapon skill up to a fairly high level in order to be able to employ it; however Saxons get to short circuit this since they can use all great weapons with equal facility via their cultural skill of '2-handed Weapons'. So this implies that Saxon knights will dominate the high end duelling arena in the latter stages of the campaign, at least until the non-Saxons have worked up some decent Greatsword skills to counter the weapon breakage special effect or knightly society puts conventions in place that label 'Greatsword vs Sword' as an unchivalrous match or some such.


I totally agree with this.

I have always ruled that with tied crits, swords do not break non-swords, as the results of the standard rules would create very strange effects. One would be, that no players with any sense at all would ever put any points in any weapon apart from Sword (and Lance of course). And Greatswords would exterminate all other great weapons once they become available.

Morien
05-09-2012, 08:31 PM
Thirded, although we use a rule where we actually count the roll+excess, and compare those numbers. So someone with a roll of 19+5=24 wins over someone with 17+6=23, but since both crit, the crit effects cancel and it is done as a normal hit. Regular crits resulting in an automatic 20 is a tied result, with weapon breakage and nothing else. So due to the above houserules, critical weapon breakage isn't an issue for us.

Greg Stafford
05-09-2012, 09:26 PM
I'm always happy to entertain discussion



Two combatants meet with sufficiently high effective skills that a crit vs crit tied resolution is the only outcome -

Only outcome? So they both have skills of 39+?[/quote]


In the game where it came up, it was actually effective skills around 35 (passions fired up, various other situational mods in effect etc) so there was actually a fairly substantial chance of a 'crit vs success' game ender, but I didn't want to confuse things in the example.

OK, my first reply is that the chances here are small, edgy indeed
almost to the point of obscurity
rare, let us say
and thus almost not worth writing up new rules to detail it


the GPC rule for tied crits is in force, so the expectation is that they will chip away at each other until one of them drops below their unconsciousness threshold.
BUT they are using mismatched weapons (sword vs non-sword or greatsword vs sword)

FIRST: I would, and in fact thought I had, corrected the rule that Greatswords break swords
It ought to say that a sword, whether one- or two-handed
does NOT break on a tie
Nonetheless, let us continue concerning hafted weapons
that is, weapons with a wooden have as opposed to a steel shaft like swords


and so the rule for tied resolution effects on weapons kicks in and the inferior weapon is broken on the first round. Knight #1 generously steps back and lets his opponent rearm, then proceeds to smash that weapon to splinters on the second pass.

That is pretty clear


Rinse. Repeat.
Is this the design intent of the RAW? If not, then what is the suggested resolution?

Yes, this is the intent


The problem as I see it is two fold.

Firstly that the rate of ties that trigger the weapon breakage special for swords and greatswords is 5% when effective skill is below 20 but if you interpret the 'all crits are treated as a roll of 20' convention to mean that a 'crit vs crit' result triggers the weapon breakage special for swords then the percentage of outcomes where a weapon breaks starts to rise as soon as effective skill goes above 20 (12% of combat rounds if both are skill 25, 32% if both are skill 30, 65% if both are skill 35) until you get to the silly case I outlined above where every combat exchange ends with a broken weapon for the poor schmuck who isn't using the trumping weapon.

It's a case of edged steel against wood


This is the troublesome point that I'm seeking clarification on with respect to the design intent of the rules - should the GPC variant 'tied crit' result (1d3 damage to each combatant) which starts to predominate at high skill levels be so tightly coupled to the triggering of the 'weapon break' special?

I am tempted to say that the bearer of the weapon that breaks takes that 1d3 damage


Secondly you have the impacts on the setting that would flow from the weapon breakage becoming so common - thus Greatsword guys will tend to dominate in the high skill domain once greatswords become available

Yes
The sword is the knight's weapon par excellance
The intent is to make it so in the system


(there's a parallel domination effect for Sword guys before greatswords become available of course,
but I don't view this as particularly problematic since swords are the default weapon for the setting).
Yes


The only way Sword guy can hope to eke out a win in my extreme scenario is if he burns through a dozen or so swords while he nickels and dimes his opponent down to unconsciousness (and this relies upon Greatsword guy to be cooperative and let him rearm from his squire's bag o'swords every other round, which isn't going to happen of course - so basically Sword guy concedes the match or gets his head chopped off).

I replace Sword with "hafted weapon"
but otherwise say, yes


The limitation on this 'Greatsword Gambit' is that you need to get a separate weapon skill up to a fairly high level in order to be able to employ it; however Saxons get to short circuit this since they can use all great weapons with equal facility via their cultural skill of '2-handed Weapons'.

I see this issue
where I had not before
My proposed solution is to reduce the number of extra points that Saxons get, overall; or perhaps able to put into weapons, since they are an oppressed minority who would be hampered in training since what knight worth his salt would encourage the training of his enemy's sons?


So this implies that Saxon knights will dominate the high end duelling arena in the latter stages of the campaign, at least until the non-Saxons have worked up some decent Greatsword skills to counter the weapon breakage special effect or knightly society puts conventions in place that label 'Greatsword vs Sword' as an unchivalrous match or some such.

Or perhaps simply allow a character in the later Phase (post-Boy King) to get Great Sword instead of Sword

silburnl
05-10-2012, 11:18 AM
Thanks for the responses Greg, they are very helpful. You say:



FIRST: I would, and in fact thought I had, corrected the rule that Greatswords break swords
It ought to say that a sword, whether one- or two-handed
does NOT break on a tie


However at KAP 5.1 p174 under the entry for Great Sword there is:


On a fumble, the great sword is dropped but not broken,
and can be recovered. On a tied resolution roll, the great sword
breaks the opponent’s weapon unless it is a great sword as well.

Emphasis mine.

Should that last bit read '...unless it is a sword or a great sword as well'?

Regards
Luke

Sir Pramalot
05-10-2012, 03:55 PM
Although I agree with the OP I had the same discussion with a very experienced KAP player who totally agreed with the RAW. He felt the extra damage benefit of other weapon types gave them the edge in all but the most extreme cases.

In my game I experimented with only counting a tie as a tie on the numbers rolled but that proved unworkable. Now I use the 1d3 damage outcome. If a sword rolls higher it breaks the non-sword. It's inconsistent with normal ties but it is simple to resolve and does lessen crit v crit breaks.

Greg Stafford
05-10-2012, 05:02 PM
On a fumble, the great sword is dropped but not broken,
and can be recovered. On a tied resolution roll, the great sword
breaks the opponent’s weapon unless it is a great sword as well.

Emphasis mine.

Should that last bit read '...unless it is a sword or a great sword as well'?


Yes

Would you please enter that under the errata section ?

silburnl
05-11-2012, 10:25 AM
Would you please enter that under the errata section ?


Done