Hi folks,

Standard Traits in BoK&L use the listed sets for each Culture/Religion combination, modified by Region & Individual Differences

Random Traits use 3d6 for each trait, modified by Religion, then Region, then Individual Differences.

On the standard set lists however, there does appear to be some variation from the mean of 10/10 due to Culture, i.e. for instance Romans have effectively +2 Deceitful (as Honest/Deceitful starts at 8/12), +2 Proud, +2 Worldly, +3 Suspicious.

Aquitainians have a bump to Forgiving, Prudent

Brit Christian Saxons have a bump to Lustful, Lazy, Honest, Arbitrary, Cruel, Worldly, Reckless, Valorous, and Temp/Indulgent seems to be the wrong way around, i.e. standard is Temp 7 / Indulgent 13, as if they have +6 Indulgent to offset the Religion +3 modifier.

What I'm getting at is should the choice to use Random 3d6 + mods also include a modifier for Culture?

Cheers,
Ben

Dont have enough time to find page number but short anwer is yes. I have seen a few poster say that random determination tends to result in higher trait scores, like characters starting with religious or chivalry bonus. So perhaps its better to let them work into those bonuses, I prefer this if you are playing the GPC, since Chivalry doesnt really exist yet in Uthers time. Many ideas are just starting to take form about what it means to be a Knight. If I was starting during Arthur's time and with experienced players random is the way to go, as the trait system will result in unforseen roleplay from your players to everyone enjoyment!

Well sure the random method will result in some higher scores, but that may not be what the player wants, or where they want it. Same way with physical stats.

In my experience the Chivralry bonus was always pretty attainable, but the religious bonus is still pretty tough to get with randomized stats. As for the Uther era, I used to not allow the Chiv bonus for knights before Arthur but I relented. The players have a pretty rough go on surviving as it is. And besides, despite his faults I always viewed Uther as a kind of seed of chivalry. Surely not anything more than a seed, but because of that perception, I allowed it and have seen no real imbalance in the many games I have run.

Just my opinion however.

Sorry I am not sure if my query has been interpreted the way I intended it!

Not meaning this as a discussion of the choice between standard or random, but that, in the BoK&L, the Standard option for traits seems to include modifiers to starting traits for the Culture of the knight, as well as for Religion & Region.

I.e. the Roman example listed above has modifiers to starting Deceitful, Suspicious, etc. (which were also from memory part of Char Gen from 4th Edition).

But the Random option for traits does not include a modifier, after rolling, for Culture - only for Region and Religion. I am inclined to calculate the apparent modifiers for Culture that are in the Standard trait lists and apply them to the Random option also, I'm just wondering if Culture modifiers were omitted in error, or on purpose from the Random trait option.



As an aside,

I do allow the Chivalry bonus in Uther's time, however I have applied strictly a part of the ruling on Requirements to qualify KAP pg 167:-

"He must swear this oath:
“To protect the widow, the orphan, the poor; not to slay a vanquished and defenseless adversary..." etc.

So, a knight who may have 80+ in the required traits does not automatically receive it, but must make the choice and state his intention to be Chivalrous. This will have implications in society where the knight may be ridiculed, picked on for being a nancy boy, that sort of thing.

I have gated this by Merlin having a secretive conversation at the very start of the game with the 2 characters who actually qualified for the bonus, identifying them as 'men of exceptional character', explaining the magical protection he believed would be received if the oath was taken, and garnering the knights' support in his 'experiment' to unravel the mystery of Chivalry.

The knight must provide an update to Merlin in the Winter Phase about his experiences in the year, what injuries he sustained ("Hmmm that injury should have killed you, interesting..."), and how he behaved (i.e. flag any 16+ traits). So in this phase, Merlin is attempting to identify the key elements that provide the mystical armour, and but he has already realised that only a knight who consciously chooses to behave in a chivalrous nature is protected.

By Arthur's time the 6 required traits are pinned down and identified by Arthur in his speech on Chivalry, which then becomes the normal behaviour of his knights.

He encourages the knights to bring in to their circle any other men of like character (i.e. any other players who reach 80+ are told of the oath and protection they could receive). In this way I've been able to make it so that any random namby pamby running about with 80+ in Phase 1/2 is unlikely to have the Chivalrous Armour, while maintaining no change in accessbility for players.

I feel the 80+ is way too low and should be 96+ as discussed in other threads (any Brit Christian Cymric starts with 77 in the required traits, and with a famous trait change to 16 and 6 points to distribute means automatic qualification for a starting character), but until there is an official rule change I wont bring this in to the game at risk of a riot :P

That should probably be in another thread oops sorry.

-Ben

Further question on this.

Standard Trait option gives characters 15/5 in Valorous/Cowardly.

Does this then extend to a +5 modifier to a Random Trait generation roll?

I assume the 15 Valorous starting trait from Standard reflects the knight's upbringing, training in martial practices and knightly pursuits and so on and so forth.

It makes sense to me to translate this in to a modifier on the random roll also, i.e. this is a Cultural modifier that ALL knights receive.

Does this sound loopy?

-Ben

Does this then extend to a +5 modifier to a Random Trait generation roll?


I would, yes.

I do not believe a +5 to valorous was intended or implied. However, it was my understanding that a choice to make one trait famous was still viable with Random. I have run multiple games with ACG (sorry! Book of Knights and Ladies!) and that was the option my players chose if they rolled poorly on valor.

I strongly discourage a plus 5 to valor with random method. It takes the fun and random out of it. Besides, as previously mentioned, the player can still opt to be famous in that trait if he rolls an unplayable number.

-Matt

Sorry to jump in on this late


Standard Traits in BoK&L use the listed sets for each Culture/Religion combination, modified by Region & Individual Differences
Random Traits use 3d6 for each trait, modified by Religion, then Region, then Individual Differences.
On the standard set lists however, there does appear to be some variation from the mean of 10/10 due to Culture, i.e. for instance Romans have effectively +2 Deceitful (as Honest/Deceitful starts at 8/12), +2 Proud, +2 Worldly, +3 Suspicious.
Aquitainians have a bump to Forgiving, Prudent
Brit Christian Saxons have a bump to Lustful, Lazy, Honest, Arbitrary, Cruel, Worldly, Reckless, Valorous, and Temp/Indulgent seems to be the wrong way around, i.e. standard is Temp 7 / Indulgent 13, as if they have +6 Indulgent to offset the Religion +3 modifier.
What I'm getting at is should the choice to use Random 3d6 + mods also include a modifier for Culture?

No.
If it was intended, it would say to do so.

Further question on this.
Standard Trait option gives characters 15/5 in Valorous/Cowardly.
Does this then extend to a +5 modifier to a Random Trait generation roll?
No

Greg - thanks and thanks.



... However, it was my understanding that a choice to make one trait famous was still viable with Random...

I read this differently in BoK&L. "B. Random Determination" has a complete run down of steps 1 through 5 to determine traits, and it does not include the Famous Trait at 16 choice.



I strongly discourage a plus 5 to valor with random method. It takes the fun and random out of it. Besides, as previously mentioned, the player can still opt to be famous in that trait if he rolls an unplayable number.

I agree now also on further thought (and Greg's quite definitive response :P). I did make it clear to a player who decided to roll that there was only a +1 Valorous Modifier from Logres Region prior to rolling. Of course the only roll that was low was Valorous :). This then made me ponder how this section was to work.

Thanks all for advice.

I read this differently in BoK&L. "B. Random Determination" has a complete run down of steps 1 through 5 to determine traits, and it does not include the Famous Trait at 16 choice.

However Section D (bottom of LH column, p46) is entitled "Modifiers to Standard & Random Traits" [my emphasis] and the preamble reads "Modify the values determined above by these." - it then lists the Ladies Modifier, Regional Trait Modifier and Individual Differences as subheads. A strict reading of the RAW thus grants a famous trait and six further points (plus a second helping of regional trait modifiers!) to randomly generated trait scores.

There's definitely an error here and I think it is that regional modifiers and individual differences only apply to 'standard trait' characters.

BTW I use 2d6+3 as the base roll for random traits because it is less 'swingy' than 3d6. This was the official rule for 'Boy King' characters back in the day and I've carried it forward IMG.

Regards
Luke

There's definitely an error here

Yes. But...


and I think it is that regional modifiers and individual differences only apply to 'standard trait' characters.

My corrections to the first edition indicate that I intended to correct this so that
Standard Traits: use Lady's and Regional Modifiers and Individual Differences
Random Traits: use Lady's and Regional Modifiers
Shaped Traits: no modifiers

That's what I thought the intent was, Greg - it's just that the regional modifiers are already mentioned as part of the random traits section a little further up the page; thus a 'Lawful Stupid' reading of the text (eg a computer algorithm - I've mentioned I'm an IT guy before right?) is that you apply the regional mods at step B.3 and then again during step D.2...

A reasonable human looks at the parenthesis in step B.3 and realises that it's just been included here as a forward reference for ease of reading and to help the typical character get generated with a minimum of rubbing out and rework on the character sheet, but given the ambiguity in the current text around which of the step D factors to apply for the various methods there's an opening for someone to get confused.

Regards
Luke