When extended rounds happen in the book of battles, am I suppose to extrapolate the stats from the unit in the book of battle or am I suppose to change the stats, to match wih a Saxon raider or chieftain instead, resulting in a different weapon skill.

For Example, say my PKs are fighting Saxon Elite Axemen, should i be leaving them with there high weapon skill of 20 and MW of 18 in extended rounds, or should they just become the stats for Saxon Raiders weapn skill 14 in the main book. If I am supposed to take thier stats as Elite Axemen, isnt the glory for slaying the tougher enemies a bit low compared to the glory in the main rulebook, how should I be modifying the glory?

The reason I ask is that when an extended fight happens in battle, the enemies are much tougher with the higher weapon skills and yield less glory, but when im doing an adventure, the PKs are having an easy time with the stats for Saxon enemies in the core book, so im wondering if im doing this wrong, are the weapon skills in the Battle system inflated for battle and inappropriate for skirmish type battles?

It's up to you. How tough a challenge do you want to throw at your PKs? Hard? Then go with the inflated stats in BoB, otherwise use something inbetween those and the ones in KAP5.1.

I imagine the higher stats in BoB reflect the total power of a unit; combined arms, unit efficiency, training etc, hence the higher ratings. This is not explicitly stated anywhere in the book that’s just how I see it. It provides a plausible reason for reducing individual enemy effectiveness when you deem it necessary. Also the blanket enemy scores in BoB smooth out any variations in individual ability - who is to say your PKs won't end up fighting the runt of the group or the standout Alpha male(monster).

Thanks for you reply Pramalot :)

I did think about the stats being higher because of the unit, but there is no precedence for it. The Pks weapon skills are the same in a unit or in single combat, which would seem to indicate we should be converting the stats over for extended rounds.

Im leaning towards, leaving the stats as they are but awarding more Glory for defeating them in single combat, but by how much?

On the flip side I was thinking if lowering the stats by perhaps 5, that might be close to the glory listed in the main rule book.

I would like to hear from more on this topic.

This is a good question
Those answers before me are good
I'll just explain my own reasoning


When extended rounds happen in the book of battles, am I suppose to extrapolate the stats from the unit in the book of battle or am I suppose to change the stats, to match with a Saxon raider or chieftain instead, resulting in a different weapon skill.

Use the ones in the Book of Battle


For Example, say my PKs are fighting Saxon Elite Axemen, should i be leaving them with there high weapon skill of 20 and MW of 18 in extended rounds, or should they just become the stats for Saxon Raiders weapon skill 14 in the main book. If I am supposed to take thier stats as Elite Axemen, isn't the glory for slaying the tougher enemies a bit low compared to the glory in the main rulebook, how should I be modifying the glory?

I do not modify the Glory
The idea is that the Glory is for the general fighting, and it's nearly impossible to tell if someone was killed or not
You might notice that there is a general pattern to the combatants that I followed, rather than using the Glory = Weapon Skill
Weapon Skill Glory would be generally lower since the knights on horses reduce their foe's skills
Also, multipliers take effect in Battles that alter everything


The reason I ask is that when an extended fight happens in battle, the enemies are much tougher with the higher weapon skills and yield less glory, but when im doing an adventure, the PKs are having an easy time with the stats for Saxon enemies in the core book, so im wondering if im doing this wrong, are the weapon skills in the Battle system inflated for battle and inappropriate for skirmish type battles?

Actually it's the other way around
I find that the weapon skills for the individual fighters are rather low
The assumption is that they are an average fighter, which includes total novices and professionals
In fact, I often vary the skills of the combatants in normal melee
I chose to make them with fixed skill levels to save the GM trouble in melee, and I chose to err on the side of weakness for the sake of the PCs
I do grant permission to alter any of that according to your own desires

Thanks for responding Greg, I found the last comment really confusing though.



Use the ones in the Book of Battle
[quote]

Ok, thats what I thought, but now we know for sure.

[quote author=Greg Stafford link=topic=1625.msg13111#msg13111 date=1337958321]
I do not modify the Glory
The idea is that the Glory is for the general fighting, and it's nearly impossible to tell if someone was killed or not
You might notice that there is a general pattern to the combatants that I followed, rather than using the Glory = Weapon Skill
Weapon Skill Glory would be generally lower since the knights on horses reduce their foe's skills
Also, multipliers take effect in Battles that alter everything
[quote]

I understand the glory is for general fighting, what I need to know is when the saxons extrapolated from the book of battles are used for not general combat. To be clear im talking about not abstracted battle rounds but under the full combat system with hp tracked. The same glory awards are not appropriate, my players are better off going on adventures were they are sure to fight easy saxons worth alot more glory, then with bothering with extended combat heroics where the enemies glory is the same if they had an army at there back, as in general combat.

[quote author=Greg Stafford link=topic=1625.msg13111#msg13111 date=1337958321]
Actually it's the other way around
I find that the weapon skills for the individual fighters are rather low
The assumption is that they are an average fighter, which includes total novices and professionals
In fact, I often vary the skills of the combatants in normal melee
I chose to make them with fixed skill levels to save the GM trouble in melee, and I chose to err on the side of weakness for the sake of the PCs
I do grant permission to alter any of that according to your own desires


Total confusion here for me with your response. To be clear im saying the extended rounds should be worth more glory for defeating an opponent because that clearly is alot harder to do then win a general abstracted combat (A Battle Round). If you use the same Glory as I think you are indicating by your responses then something is wrong because, a average warrior as you put it (core book saxon) is worth far more Glory than a more deadly professional, in combat rounds with tracked hp.

So my question remains, how much more glory should be awarded from the extrapolated stats when using them for extended rounds? I realize I can house rule this anyway I want but im looking for a more definitive response. Thanks, I hope you can address this for me Greg as you are a champ for making this great rpg, and your thoughts hold the most weight.

As a House Rule. Im thinking perhaps the glory should be awarded every round in extended combat? My reasoning is since a Battle round really is just an abstract hour of battle, resolved with a single action round. But it would have to be capped at some point. So im suggesting 3x the glory listed in the book of battle is the cap after being modified by the multipliers found in the BoB.

For example

A PK goes to save a fellow knight and faces two BoB Saxon enemies, he defeats one saxon but the other wounds him badly, he fights on but in round 3 decides to run away! For the extended scene this will count as a Defeat.

So that defeat after round 3 would yield the full 3x the glory for the one saxon, then because of the defeat, final glory would be half of that. He would then get the glory for the first saxon he defeated x1 because he went down in the first round. So his total would be the list BoB Glory x2.5 (1x+3x/2) if you follow. How does that sound to you guys? What do you think Greg?

Thanks for responding Greg, I found the last comment really confusing though.

Please isolate the "last statement" for me

Sure thing ill report my comment and your reply below, im interested in figuring out what is the appropriate glory for Saxon taken into normal combat (not battle rounds) from BoB, wondering what Glory is appropriate for Extended combat in BoB. I just realized the problem, where im confused ???. I thought extended combat was resolved like normal combat with tracked hp, like when a knight is unhorsed and others come to the rescue. Is that so, because on rereading it appears that maybe you only do this when fighting bodyguards? Clearly when fighting a leader it says use regular combat on pg.54, if that is correct you can see why it is springing up as a problem for me with Glory, because extended heroics dont yield appropriate glory in relation to the much better saxons you meet on the field of battle and it cropping up more than it should because I thought all extended combat used extrapolated stats from BoB.



I understand the glory is for general fighting, what I need to know is when the saxons extrapolated from the book of battles are used for not general combat. To be clear im talking about not abstracted battle rounds but under the full combat system with hp tracked. The same glory awards are not appropriate, my players are better off going on adventures were they are sure to fight easy saxons worth alot more glory, then with bothering with extended combat heroics where the enemies glory is the same if they had an army at there back, as in general combat.




Actually it's the other way around
I find that the weapon skills for the individual fighters are rather low
The assumption is that they are an average fighter, which includes total novices and professionals
In fact, I often vary the skills of the combatants in normal melee
I chose to make them with fixed skill levels to save the GM trouble in melee, and I chose to err on the side of weakness for the sake of the PCs
I do grant permission to alter any of that according to your own desires

Is there a problem with using the basic formula for foes in Extended Combat rounds (ie glory = combat skill(s) used by opponent + 1% of their glory)?

Regards
Luke

Is there a problem with using the basic formula for foes in Extended Combat rounds (ie glory = combat skill(s) used by opponent + 1% of their glory)?

Regards
Luke


Hi Luke, I cant find that formula in the book, can you tell me where it is? Im assuming the 1% glory is that of the PK? Is that 5th ed?

Is there a problem with using the basic formula for foes in Extended Combat rounds (ie glory = combat skill(s) used by opponent + 1% of their glory)?

Regards
Luke


Hi Luke, I cant find that formula in the book, can you tell me where it is? Im assuming the 1% glory is that of the PK? Is that 5th ed?


It was ommitted from the book by accident, but you can find the details here (http://www.gspendragon.com/missingglory.html).

Regards
Luke

That formula gives me a place to start, but the saxons dont have glory, perhaps just go with the book of battle glory + thier weapon skill?

Question, when a knight is unhorsed and others come to the rescue, is this extended combat with tracked hp or just more battle rounds? It seems to imdicate this in the color text but only says its regular combat when PKs attacking a bodyguard of a leader.

That formula gives me a place to start, but the saxons dont have glory, perhaps just go with the book of battle glory + thier weapon skill?

Question, when a knight is unhorsed and others come to the rescue, is this extended combat with tracked hp or just more battle rounds? It seems to imdicate this in the color text but only says its regular combat when PKs attacking a bodyguard of a leader.


Rescuing a friend takes place in the Extended Melee phase. It's not a Battle round, just a melee round at the end of the normal Battle Round. This may spill over into several melee rounds depending on the outcome of your efforts.

I feel like nobody is getting the gist of what I have been saying. Glory for winning a battle round should not be the same for the same opponents when used for real combat as in all extended rounds. :( . If anyone is interested, my findings show that an award 10 more glory for each enemy taken down in extended combat, is closest to what is represented in the core book at the lower end but that probably the minimal bump, up to x2 glory would seem to be more correct at the higher end, as a knight in the book of roughly same stats is 50 where BoB, would give 20 glory.

For example

Book says Saxon Raider is 35 glory, there are no raiders but there are 3 saxons
saxon 1/ skill14/ armor 6 + shield/ MW14/ Dmg 5d6
saxon 2/ skill 21/ armor10 + shield/ MW14/ Dmg 6d6
saxon 3/ skill 19/ armor10/ MW18/ Dmg 7d6

BoB
Saxon 3/ skill 15/ armor 8 +shield/ MW 17/ Dmg 5d6 = glory 10
Saxon 12/ skill 20/ armor 8 +shield/ MW 17/ Dmg 5d6 = glory 15
Saxon 19/ skill 18/ armor 8/ MW 16/ Dmg 7d6 = glory 25

I feel like nobody is getting the gist of what I have been saying. Glory for winning a battle round should not be the same for the same opponents when used for real combat as in all extended rounds. :( . If anyone is interested, my findings show that an award 10 more glory for each enemy taken down in extended combat, is closest to what is represented in the core book at the lower end but that probably the minimal bump, up to x2 glory would seem to be more correct at the higher end, as a knight in the book of roughly same stats is 50 where BoB, would give 20 glory.

For example

Book says Saxon Raider is 35 glory, there are no raiders but there are 3 saxons
saxon 1/ skill14/ armor 6 + shield/ MW14/ Dmg 5d6
saxon 2/ skill 21/ armor10 + shield/ MW14/ Dmg 6d6
saxon 3/ skill 19/ armor10/ MW18/ Dmg 7d6

BoB
Saxon 3/ skill 15/ armor 8 +shield/ MW 17/ Dmg 5d6 = glory 10
Saxon 12/ skill 20/ armor 8 +shield/ MW 17/ Dmg 5d6 = glory 15
Saxon 19/ skill 18/ armor 8/ MW 16/ Dmg 7d6 = glory 25



I don't wish to misinterpret you, so please point out if I am, but from what I can see you're not comparing like with like. Defeating a single saxon in open (normal) combat is not the same as doing so in a Battle Round. Mostly, you get glory for killing your opponent, in battle you are only fighting 1 round, which simulates your involvement against many foes over the course of approx 1 hour - it doesn't necessarily mean you killed any of them, it's just a measure of your success/failure relative to the other combatants in your unit.

This is true even in extended melee - it's just a single round, ie 1 opposed roll of the dice. If you decide to switch over to normal melee for a more detailed fight (say against an enemy commader, leader of hero) then you would award normal glory.

Also remember that the battle outcome modifies all Glory. An outright win gives x2. In any medium sized battle or greater it's possible to earn a lot of glory.

Taking your questions in reverse order...



Question, when a knight is unhorsed and others come to the rescue, is this extended combat with tracked hp or just more battle rounds? It seems to imdicate this in the color text but only says its regular combat when PKs attacking a bodyguard of a leader.


It is an extended melee pattern just like the others. The five patterns given in the book (BoB, pp52-5) are:
- Rescue a Friend
- Take A Prisoner
- Fight An Enemy Leader
- Rally
- Break Away



That formula gives me a place to start, but the saxons dont have glory, perhaps just go with the book of battle glory + thier weapon skill?

The web-page I linked says that for inferior opponents (ie without glory) then you just use all the skills used by an average enemy to calculate the 'defeat foe' glory - this is a raw 'danger quotient' if you will.


I feel like nobody is getting the gist of what I have been saying. Glory for winning a battle round should not be the same for the same opponents when used for real combat as in all extended rounds.

Well given the way things have drifted, I'm finding it quite difficult to figure out what your question is. Is it how tough enemies should be as you transition from normal battle round to extended melee phase? Or is it how much glory you should assign for defeated foes during extended melee phases? Or is it how much glory should you award for defeating a foe modelled on an entry from a BoB Army Table but used in a conventional encounter? You flip from one concern to the other, sometimes in the same post. Also it doesn't help that the post you did at #5 of this thread doesn't make it clear which bits are you and which bits are quotes that you are responding to.


For example

Hooray, examples - I can work with examples. Let's see now...


Book says Saxon Raider is 35 glory,[...]

I take it this is from p220 of the v5.1 main book. At which point I refer you to the first sentence on that page - "Use these guidelines as the starting point for Glory awarded." - these are examples to help give you a rule of thumb for assigning glory, they are not set in stone.


[...]there are no raiders but there are 3 saxons
saxon 1/ skill14/ armor 6 + shield/ MW14/ Dmg 5d6
saxon 2/ skill 21/ armor10 + shield/ MW14/ Dmg 6d6
saxon 3/ skill 19/ armor10/ MW18/ Dmg 7d6

These are the NPCs statted on p178 of the main book; Saxon 1 = warrior, Saxon 2 = chieftain, Saxon 3 = berserker.

Assuming that an 'average saxon' will throw javelins and then close with an axe, I get the following glory awards based on the formula from page I linked upthread:

Saxon 1 = Javelin 13 + Axe 14 = 27 glory
Saxon 2 = Javelin 17 + Axe 21 = 38 glory
Saxon 3 = Javelin 20 + Great Axe 29* = 49 glory

* Fighting impassioned is a default setting for berserks so I would rule that this 'counts' for the glory award.

So if my player knights encountered a scouting group of half a dozen saxons, led by a thegn and his psycho-berserk sidekick they would be looking at splitting ~250 glory if they managed to kill or capture the lot of them. Note that 8 x 35 = 270, so going with the guideline award from p220 of the main book is also pretty close.



BoB
Saxon 3/ skill 15/ armor 8 +shield/ MW 17/ Dmg 5d6 = glory 10
Saxon 12/ skill 20/ armor 8 +shield/ MW 17/ Dmg 5d6 = glory 15
Saxon 19/ skill 18/ armor 8/ MW 16/ Dmg 7d6 = glory 25

These are drawn from the Attacking Saxon Army table (BoB, p69) and are respectively 'Screaming Warriors', 'Chanting Warriors' and 'Berserkers' - note the MW for 'Saxon 3' is actually 18.

OK, the way I would rule it would be that if during a battle you do any of the 'Extended Melee' options (as listed at the top of my post) then for each extended melee phase that occurs you get the glory award as stated in the army table and modified by the events for that phase (the extended melee phases should be treated as recursions of the base melee phase (ie step 4) within the single containing battle round - the sequencing of the book and some of the text suggests that it occurs after the main sequence of the normal battle round, but the sample battle on pp72-7 treats them as a reiteration of step 4).

Based on the 'Glory' paragraph at the bottom of p55 however, I would also award additional glory for defeating individual opponents during these phases, since individuals 'carry over' from phase to phase (for example in the 'Fight An Enemy Leader' pattern). For ease of handling I'd probably use the basic glory from the army table for this additional glory, this is low-balling the glory for that individual but then you've already got one portion of glory just for being in combat with them and doubling the glory as given in the army table puts you into the right ballpark for a one-on-one 'defeat foes' glory award as laid out in the web page I cited.

If I was running NPCs inspired by the Army tables but in a standard adventure I would hopefully have fleshed out the stats somewhat so I could use the normal formula, but if I was winging it I'd probably just double the glory noted in the Army table.

Regards
Luke

Thanks Silburn, I repped you for your last reply.

I think this is a good way to handle additional Glory for extended combat.

I apologize for confusingly jumping around a bit as to what Glory award im specifically looking for and in what situation. Below is a list of what questions Ive asked and answers being used.

How tough enemies should be as you transition from normal battle round to extended melee phase? Answer, Greg said model them after the stats from BoB. They are meant to be tough.

How much glory you should assign for defeated foes during extended melee phases? Answer, working out the final details here, this is a house rule using the guidelines in the rulebook as much as possible to achieve desired outcome.

How much glory should you award for defeating a foe modelled on an entry from a BoB Army Table but used in a conventional encounter. For BoB types taken into an adventure, and how Glory should be awarded, you and Greg have answered that for me thanks. Answer, Use the link on Gregs website. http://www.gspendragon.com/missingglory.html

To summarize your last post

1. You are in favor of using the BoB glory, each round.
2. Also dont forget to award individual awards on pg.55, using the same Glory in BoB, I would have forgotten this if you didnt mention it.

I have just one more question?

When you say the Glory should be modified by the events of the phase, Im thinking you mean the result of the battle for loss, win, crush x.5, x1, x2 Glory or things like bad odds and such. If it is modified by the result crush/defeat, perhaps only part 2 should be done that way, as part 1 modified that way would yield to much glory. What do you think?

My take is that extended rounds glory would be relatively minimal actually in terms of defeated foes. Another Saxon being defeated in a large on-going battle is going to be less noticed and commented on than one defeated in essentially one-on-one combat during a skirmish.

And the battle results should play a part. People discuss the defeats a bit less, while the tallies during a victorious battle will be talked about and elaborated on more.

When you say the Glory should be modified by the events of the phase, Im thinking you mean the result of the battle for loss, win, crush x.5, x1, x2 Glory or things like bad odds and such. If it is modified by the result crush/defeat, perhaps only part 2 should be done that way, as part 1 modified that way would yield to much glory. What do you think?


I do mean loss, win etc - so the basic glory is earned in full for a win/tie, halved for a loss, halved if you fight defensively etc. With each opponent bringing his own allotment of glory, so if you are up against two foes in a melee phase then you get glory for both - thus if you win against one, but lose against the other then you would get one and half portions of glory. Repeat as needed for extended melee phases. I would apply these modifers to the basic table glory allotment but not for the 'defeat a foe' allotment, so if you got beaten by him in the first phase, then criticalled him in the second (extended) phase and put him straight down you would get 2.5 times the basic table award (0.5x for the first round, 1.0x for the second round and then 1.0x for defeating him).

Note that triumphs, crushes etc are unit results rather than individual results so would not figure in these calculations, but ultimately those things feed through (albeit indirectly) to the final battle outcome where your overall total of glory for the battle can be either doubled or halved if a decisive result is obtained.

Battles can certainly be a notable glory source (especially decisive victories at the larger ones) - the trick of course is to survive such meatgrinders (no mean feat at Badon or the like), but I'm not too worried by knights getting big piles of glory for these set piece events.

Regards
Luke

Battles can certainly be a notable glory source (especially decisive victories at the larger ones) - the trick of course is to survive such meatgrinders (no mean feat at Badon or the like), but I'm not too worried by knights getting big piles of glory for these set piece events.

In fact, it was the game designer's intent that these huge and large battles rack up the Glory
You don't have to tell your players
But the later generations will note that they are getting less Glory than their grandpas
and maybe figure out why
and find Mordred's suggestions all the more appealing for doing so...

Fighting a battle yesterday I remembered the reason for the diminished Glory in Battle

Simple: in a battle you only fight for a single Round