I've run the Grendel adventure from Land of Giants and I intend for the players to be shipwrecked in Scotland on the return voyage in order to run some of the adventures in Beyond the Wall.

The BoKL lists several tattoos for Picts that provide various advantages and one for the Danes that, while not magical, provides similar results. It seems tattoos might be a suitable reward for service to the Danish and Pictish lords, so if a player asks for such a boon what should be involved? Is it reasonable for a player to have several magical tattoos? Should my Jewish knight suffer any penalties if he gets any?

I've run the Grendel adventure from Land of Giants and I intend for the players to be shipwrecked in Scotland on the return voyage in order to run some of the adventures in Beyond the Wall.

The BoKL lists several tattoos for Picts that provide various advantages and one for the Danes that, while not magical, provides similar results. It seems tattoos might be a suitable reward for service to the Danish and Pictish lords, so if a player asks for such a boon what should be involved? Is it reasonable for a player to have several magical tattoos? Should my Jewish knight suffer any penalties if he gets any?

In my mind the tattoo is not the source of the magic
religion is
the tattoos only work for members of the religion
but then
I am a hard assed GM

I've run the Grendel adventure from Land of Giants and I intend for the players to be shipwrecked in Scotland on the return voyage in order to run some of the adventures in Beyond the Wall.

The BoKL lists several tattoos for Picts that provide various advantages and one for the Danes that, while not magical, provides similar results. It seems tattoos might be a suitable reward for service to the Danish and Pictish lords, so if a player asks for such a boon what should be involved? Is it reasonable for a player to have several magical tattoos? Should my Jewish knight suffer any penalties if he gets any?

In my mind the tattoo is not the source of the magic


religion is
the tattoos only work for members of the religion
but then
I am a hard assed GM


I agree with the logic there, but the tattoos work for Picts who are British Christians and some of PKs are BCs. So should they work for Christians who aren't Picts?

I've run the Grendel adventure from Land of Giants and I intend for the players to be shipwrecked in Scotland on the return voyage in order to run some of the adventures in Beyond the Wall.

The BoKL lists several tattoos for Picts that provide various advantages and one for the Danes that, while not magical, provides similar results. It seems tattoos might be a suitable reward for service to the Danish and Pictish lords, so if a player asks for such a boon what should be involved? Is it reasonable for a player to have several magical tattoos? Should my Jewish knight suffer any penalties if he gets any?

In my mind the tattoo is not the source of the magic


religion is
the tattoos only work for members of the religion
but then
I am a hard assed GM


I agree with the logic there, but the tattoos work for Picts who are British Christians and some of PKs are BCs. So should they work for Christians who aren't Picts?

Ah, good call!
I'll say then that
1. " tattoos only work for members of the culture"
and further explain that
2. I resist making it readily available to avoid minimaxing, and also
3. to avoid voiding a historical precedent wherein other cultures did not have tatoos, meanwhile admitting that
4. the tatoos are my gimmick to have something to help out those sorry Picts
and finally,
5. remind everyone that you may do as you wish in your own game!

Ah, good call!
I'll say then that
1. " tattoos only work for members of the culture"
and further explain that
2. I resist making it readily available to avoid minimaxing, and also
3. to avoid voiding a historical precedent wherein other cultures did not have tatoos, meanwhile admitting that
4. the tatoos are my gimmick to have something to help out those sorry Picts
and finally,
5. remind everyone that you may do as you wish in your own game!

Good points all. One final question. Should a Pict father be able to tattoo his offspring if he has a magic tattoo himself?

Good points all. One final question. Should a Pict father be able to tattoo his offspring if he has a magic tattoo himself?

GM call on that
but apropo to that
my understanding is that societies with a tattoo tradition of this nature have specialists who do the work, generally someone trained in spirit work to capture the power into the tattoo

Rob,

There are some quite cool guidelines in Beyond the Wall. The childhood initiation stuff states that kids get their first tattoo in a 9 day ceremony when they are 14. They then become an adult. (p24 and 37. this is always their tribes' totem spirit. Warriors may go on spirit walks to the otherworld (p39 under the heading Warrior Spirit Friends) to gain further tattoos, usually with the aid of a Fiosaiche. I suppose it's possible they might do this for a stranger. What pictish totem spirit's may think of a stranger who comes to make the bargain though, might be an entirely different kettle of fish.

HTH

GR

Should my Jewish knight suffer any penalties if he gets any?


Regardless of whether the tattoos work, I think both Jewish and Christian religious leaders would take it Very Badly. You're talking about engraving into your PK's flesh an appeal to a Pagan power -- the other team -- in violation of Leviticus 19:28.

How that religious disapproval manifests in your game, and how serious that is, is of course up to you. But in my game the knight would at least get a visit from the family cleric, concerned that the knight has started on a path leading him away from the religion of his father and his father's fathers before him. Good for a discussion of what the family history means to the PK at least.

Should my Jewish knight suffer any penalties if he gets any?


Regardless of whether the tattoos work, I think both Jewish and Christian religious leaders would take it Very Badly. You're talking about engraving into your PK's flesh an appeal to a Pagan power -- the other team -- in violation of Leviticus 19:28.

How that religious disapproval manifests in your game, and how serious that is, is of course up to you. But in my game the knight would at least get a visit from the family cleric, concerned that the knight has started on a path leading him away from the religion of his father and his father's fathers before him. Good for a discussion of what the family history means to the PK at least.


True, but tattooing hasn't nearly been as badly thought of amongst Christians as among Jews, and the tattoos work for Pictish Christians as well as pagans so I don't see them as a big problem for Christians.

True, but tattooing hasn't nearly been as badly thought of amongst Christians as among Jews, and the tattoos work for Pictish Christians as well as pagans so I don't see them as a big problem for Christians.


In fact, it was a popular to get tattoos after co9mpleting many of the popular pilgrimages
I recall from Jerusalem people got stigmata tattoos onto their hands, maybe elsewhere too
and there was something similiar from Santiago de Compostela

I see (at least early) Christian tolerance of tattoos in the context of the general trend of Christian missionaries to co-opt pagan beliefs and practices into Christianity. This extended to adopting pagan gods and spirits as saints, and converting former pagan holy places into pilgrimage sites. It's really only happen-stance that we don't have a St Merlin.

If a great pagan warrior or king converts to Christianity, what are you going to do about his tattoos? Too much of a can of worms, but then if it's OK for him to have tattoos, you can't really stop anyone else going and getting them as well. Early Christian missionary work was the art of the possible. Win the fights you can't avoid and work on everything else over time.

I'd generally characterise British Christians as being very flexible on these sorts of things, while Roman Christians will be more hidebound about it. Jewish characters are a different problem, there's really no scope for flexibility there.

Simon Hibbs

All just IMHO:

I had Beyond the Wall long before I ever got BoKL, so my perspective may be skewed by that fact. Greg does state that if the books contradict, use the later one. So the view of Tattoos in BOKL supersedes Beyond; where they contradict one another.
Apologies if I've missed anything about tattoos elsewhere in BOKL but in BOKL Tattoos are available to all Picts from the luck table so that does indeed imply that British Christian picts can have them.

Beyond... specifically states that to use a tattoo, the character must contact the spirit for whom he has the tattoo and summon the essence of the spirit(there is a roll) to gain the effect. There is a specific plus and a specific duration of effect. The tattoo is put there following a spirit walk by a Fiosaiche (a Heathen Shaman) in a religious ceremony.
Greg's tattoos in BOKL have a listed effect and duration and also a delay before the effect. To me that delay implies that that is the period in which the character is calling on the spirit. However that might be just down to me trying to integrate the two books whilst avoiding contradictions.
Personally, IMC, I would not allow any character with a religious bonus from another religion to get one of these tattoos. Any character from another religion would have to rationalise it to themselves. The obvious choice for a celtic or british christian is the saint route. Have the BC rationalise it as speaking to the saint, calling on my patron saint etc, and whilst it may be considered outlandish it will probably pass muster with religious authorities of the more forgiving sort. How much the character believes this rationalisation is a matter for his own conscience (and Pious score ;))

All just IMHO and hope it helps a little,

GR

All just IMHO:


Very nice GR!
Good work

Recasting the nature of the tattoo and what it symbolizes within the character's beliefs is great. I expect magical tattoos would be almost unknown among non-Picts. Symbolic tattoos might be encountered, although they would likely be uncommon if not rare.

Tattooing, scarification, piercing and other forms of body modification are human universals. The meaning accociated with such practices vary widely. Part of the significance of the prohibition in Leviticus 19:28 was maintaining Jewish ritual purity. Tattooing and scarification were being practiced by non-Jewish cultures, prohibiting Jews from adopting the same practices helped to maintain the Jewish identity as a distinct people in a special relationship to their God.

GMs could also have fun with the. Fact that the same symbol may have different meanings in different cultures. A couple of real world examples, to this day in India a swastika is a solar symbol contacting good luck and positive wishes; in the eighties when I first got my ear pierced which ear connotated which sexual orientation varied geographically, and in many regions having either ear pierced was considered suspect. The Cross is another symbol that has many meanings, not all of them related to Christianity.

I would also be inclined to forbid characters with a religious bonus from one religion to receive any bonus or advantage from any symbol or relic of another faith tradition, and would penalize them for trying to gain such a bonus. The possible exception being for opposition of Culture and Religion. Thus a Christian Pict might be allowed to receive magical tattoos and benefit from them. Any other character receiving a Christian Religious bonus would receive no benefit from a Pictish magical tattoo, and a character with a Christian Religious bonus who intentionally sought out a Pictish magical tattoo would be penalized for it. A Pagan or Heathen character would not receive a bonus for carrying a Christian Saint's relic, although a Christian would. In the case of those Saints who were both Christain and non-Christian holy men the bonus would apply to both sides.

Magic is in part a matter of faith and belief. Everyone in KAP is potentially affected by some magic because everyone has at least some belief in the possibility of magic. They may view it as the actions of spirits, the gods, God, angels, demons, devils or faeries, but they all believe in some form of supernatural.

Devout Jews and Roman Christians would likely look down on all displays of tattoos, etc. Scarification could be praised by a Roman Christian as a sign of faith through mortification of the flesh, and by a Heathen as a sign of manliness by resisting pain simultaneously.

Magic is in part a matter of faith and belief.

not in KAP


Everyone in KAP is potentially affected by some magic because everyone has at least some belief in the possibility of magic. They may view it as the actions of spirits, the gods, God, angels, demons, devils or faeries, but they all believe in some form of supernatural.

Not exactly
The believe in it because they see it happen
because it is not based on belief

Ah hah! in looking at the notes on the Luck tables I think I found the answer. Unless otherwise specified magical items will function for anyone. If specified as only working for a particular religion (and by extension Culture or other characteristic) they will only work for characters who belong to that group.

Thus a non-Pict, even a Roman Christian or Jewish non-Pict could possibly receive a Pictish magical tattoo and be able to utilize its magic.The interaction of the tattoo and the character's religion would be a matter of individual faith and conscience. the character might think nothing of it, might see it as perfectly in harmony with their beliefs, or might see it as in opposition to their beliefs. In all of hese cases he magic would still work, but a character who felt that having such a tattoo was in conflict with their beliefs might try to have the tattoo removed or need to check Pious vs Worldly or undertake some religious penance.

The case of the Pictish tattoo is not different in kind to a Pagan character deriving benefit from using a Christian Marvelous or Miraculous object or a Christian employing a Pagan Marvelous or Magical object. All but the most devout would probably favor pragmatism over doctrine. Yes, it's from the "other side", but, hey it works. It works because magic working is part of the way the world works, it works for them because it is not a magic that only works for certain people not others.

Of course a Christian Knight who conspicuously displays and uses Pagan magics or a Pagan Knight who conspicuously displays and uses Chritian miracles may come under harsher dislike from their respective religious authorities, not only are they using magic, they are using the "wrong" magic. I expect hat the finer points of distinguishing between Christian and Pagan magics are lost on most people. They just know that they say "magic" being used and it scares them.