My question is basically if a widow would keep her dowry manors, and what would happen to dowry manors if the wife of a knight dies without an heir (assuming here her dowry was some manors).

Let's say our Lady A had her dowry as X manors. She married with Sir B who has Y manors.
Their son lil' C would inherit X+Y manors.

Case 1: Lady A dies. What would happen to her dowry of X manors?
A) They are Sir B's now. Even is lil's C dies as a child, he would remain it.
B) They are lil' C 's now, and Sir B as his guardian would keep it for now. If lil' C dies before adulthood, then Sir B's would lose those X manors.
C) The above answers are completely wrong here and there is another answer.

Case 2: Sir B dies. What would happen to all those manors?
A) X and Y are all lil' C's now. Lady A gets (X+Y)/3 manors as her widow gift, and those will return to lil' C when she dies.
B) Lady A get's Y/3 and all her X manors. Y/3 is her widow's gift, Y are her's granted. Her X/3 will revert to lil' C when she dies, but if she maries those X would be of her new husband/heirs.
C) Same as above except all manors would revert to lil' C.
C) The above answers are completely wrong here and there is another answer.

Case 3: Sir B dies with no heirs (poor lil' C).
A) Lady A gets (X+Y)/3 as her widow's gift. She has no heir for those manors and they would all revert to her lord when she dies.
B) Lady A gets X + Y/3. X are her's granted and Y/3 is her widows gift. Heir children would inherit only X manors.
C) The above answers are completely wrong here and there is another answer.

Bonus) If sir B dies, does his brother gets some of the X manors that were part of Lady A dowry, or just those Y from his bloodline? If lil' C is alive he would be the heir right? In this case what would be of B's. Brother (obviously here a PK replacing his player's later Sir B)?


Edit: fixed some errors

1.B, I believe Morian is correct
2.A
3.Not sure, but B is reasonable. Its up to the ruler, the more powerful the Lady is the more likely the ruler is reasonable. A greedy ruler or one who didnt like the knight might get away with C.

Bonus. Not normally, if little C was alive he would inherit only Y. B would only be guardian if C wasnt old enough and if there is no heir the bro would have no claim on X manors that were widows gifts. If they were part of the dowry then the bro could claim them.

Note that in all cases exceptions might happen. For example, during Anarchy, might makes right, etc.

1. Option B. Those X manors belong to the bloodline of Lady A, and hence C is the rightful heir. B has no claim other than the marriage, and with Lady A dead, there is no marriage anymore.

2. I'd go with Option A. (You have a mistake in option B, as Y manors were Sir B's, so I think you meant Y/3 + X for Lady A.)

3. B. Although you mixed up X manors (her dowry) and Y manors (Sir B's manors) again. So her other heirs would gain X manors and Y/3 would be her widow's gift during her lifetime.

Bonus. I assume you mean X manors again (owned by Sir B). Yes, he would, if there are no other heirs. Assuming they follow the Norman tradition, that is.

We need a Book of Inheritance..

fg,
Thijs

We need a Book of Inheritance..


Indeed, but I rather like the possibility of telling players that it depends on the GM's decision and the needs of the plot. :P

My question is basically if a widow would keep her dowry manors, and what would happen to dowry manors if the wife of a knight dies without an heir (assuming here her dowry was some manors).

Let's say our Lady A had her dowry as X manors. She married with Sir B who has Y manors.
Their son lil' C would inherit X+Y manors.

Case 1: Lady A dies. What would happen to her dowry of X manors?
A) They are Sir B's now. Even is lil's C dies as a child, he would remain it.
B) They are lil' C 's now, and Sir B as his guardian would keep it for now. If lil' C dies before adulthood, then Sir B's would lose those X manors.
C) The above answers are completely wrong here and there is another answer.

B is correct



Case 2: Sir B dies. What would happen to all those manors?
A) X and Y are all lil' C's now. Lady A gets (X+Y)/3 manors as her widow gift, and those will return to lil' C when she dies.
B) Lady A get's Y/3 and all her X manors. Y/3 is her widow's gift, Y are her's granted. Her X/3 will revert to lil' C when she dies, but if she maries those X would be of her new husband/heirs.
C) Same as above except all manors would revert to lil' C.
C) The above answers are completely wrong here and there is another answer.

C2 is right
She gets her dower--i.e. the 1/3 she was promised



Case 3: Sir B dies with no heirs (poor lil' C).
A) Lady A gets (X+Y)/3 as her widow's gift. She has no heir for those manors and they would all revert to her lord when she dies.
B) Lady A gets X + Y/3. X are her's granted and Y/3 is her widows gift. Heir children would inherit only X manors.
C) The above answers are completely wrong here and there is another answer.

B


Bonus) If sir B dies, does his brother gets some of the X manors that were part of Lady A dowry, or just those Y from his bloodline? If lil' C is alive he would be the heir right? In this case what would be of B's. Brother (obviously here a PK replacing his player's later Sir B)?

I am a little confused by now but
C gets all but his mother's dower
a guardian takes care of them all until C is an adult
B's brother is out of luck

We need a Book of Inheritance..


It is scheduled to be in the Book of the FAMILY

In my Game, we had a PK marrying a rich lady, way above his league. He had 1 manor and she had 4 manors as dowry.

The PK in question died without heirs, and now the player wants to play as the PK's brother.
What we don't know is what will be made of those manors now.


A- The widow will get her 4 manors (dowry) back plus 1/3 of the PK's manor as dower. The 2/3 of the dead PK's manor will go to his brother.
B- The widow will get 1/3 of the 5 manors (or about £10 per year) and the PK's brother will inherit the 2/3 remaining (or about £20 per year)
C- The widow will get her 4 manors back, and also the FULL manor of her late husband (since you can't really split a manor into thirds) as dower and the poor brother will only see his only family manor back when she is dead

For another PK, his wife died giving birth, but the child didn't survived. She has 2 manors (dowry) and the PK just had 1. He have no heirs at all. I'm not sure if he should keep those 2 extra manors or if they should revert to the wife's family.

Calliban, here is how I'd handle it:

First case: A. PK's brother doesn't have any right to the dower manors, while the wife doesn't have any right to the PK's manor (other than widow's portion). Grated, the PK's manor would revert to the Lord at first to determine the rightful heir, but at least in our campaign, the Lord would need a pretty pressing reason not to give it to the next male relative. Might be different if the next male relative is more removed than a full brother.

Second case: 2 dower manors revert back to the dead wife's family. The PK only held them jure uxoris, in the right of his wife, and now that the wife is dead, he has no claim. Had they managed to get an heir, then the heir would inherit the dowry manors, and the PK would rule over them as regent for his infant son/daughter.

In my Game, we had a PK marrying a rich lady, way above his league. He had 1 manor and she had 4 manors as dowry.
The PK in question died without heirs, and now the player wants to play as the PK's brother.
What we don't know is what will be made of those manors now.

the correct answer is:
A- The widow will get her 4 manors (dowry) back plus 1/3 of the PK's manor as dower. The 2/3 of the dead PK's manor will go to his brother.


For another PK, his wife died giving birth, but the child didn't survived. She has 2 manors (dowry) and the PK just had 1. He have no heirs at all. I'm not sure if he should keep those 2 extra manors or if they should revert to the wife's family.

They revert to the wife's family

Reading all the replies i think you can reduce it to two rules:
1) A wife does not inherit manors. She holds them in trust for her own children. If there are no (male) children then the manors return to the closest male relative. (This is Salic law I think)
2) Manors in a dowry are not granted to the husband. As with heiresses they are granted to the children.

Reading all the replies i think you can reduce it to two rules:
1) A wife does not inherit manors. She holds them in trust for her own children. If there are no (male) children then the manors return to the closest male relative. (This is Salic law I think).


You could run it that way, certainly. I would run it that the estate passes to a female child in the absence of male heirs, rather than a male relative - that way the game has a decent supply of heiresses to woo (or rescue from wicked guardians).

Regards
Luke

I would rule that manors in a Dowry remain in the wife's family line. If she dies without surviving male children then these manors will pass either to her oldest surviving female child or to her closest male relative subject to the needs of the plot. If her father is still living they will return to him. Note, I would generally expect the dowry to pass to her closest surviving male relative. But if a non-widowed heiress is required by the plot the only way to achieve this without wiping out an entire family line is to pass the dowry to her daughter.

The tricky bit is if a widow dies having only surviving female descendants (no living male children, or sons of male children) what happens to any manors she inherited as her widow's portion?

It seems quite clear that property generally decends through the male line, skipping generations if need be as long as there is direct decent. It is clear that dowry remains in the woman's family. Manors from a husband that are not part of the widow's portion remain in the husband's family going to his closest male kin.

If a widow dies with a surviving male child then he gets the whole lot, dowry, widow's portion, and the rest of his father's estate.

I assume that if a widow dies with no surviving marital descendants the widow's portion returns to her husband's closest male relative and her dowry passes to her closest male relative. Is this also true if the only surviving descendants of the marriage are female?

You could run it that way, certainly. I would run it that the estate passes to a female child in the absence of male heirs, rather than a male relative - that way the game has a decent supply of heiresses to woo (or rescue from wicked guardians).


Where did this female heiress come from?
Everything I have said about the heir getting property is the same for an heiress, if she is the only child
In a later period the inheritance is divided equally between daughters, if there are only female heirs

Two nitpicks.



...or to her closest male relative subject to the needs of the plot. If her father is still living they will return to him.
If her father were still alive she wouldn't have the inheritance.



The tricky bit is if a widow dies having only surviving female descendants (no living male children, or sons of male children) what happens to any manors she inherited as her widow's portion?

The widow's portion reverts to the estate it came from upon her death (ie to whichever member of her husband's bloodline got the 2/3rds of the estate that didn't form the widow's portion). It's intended to support her in her widowhood and only her widowhood, not get passed on to an heir on her side of the family.

A lot of these questions are easily resolved if you visualise estates as belonging to an extended family or clan rather than a specific individual. The 'owner' is merely the current custodian of the property and on their death it passes along to the next in seniority in the bloodline (after temporary entails such as the widow's portion or guardians during a period of minority have been dealt with).

Regards
Luke