As there are several discussions about chivalry I would like to add another question:
Can you be a religious knight (having all traits at 16+) and still have a low pious trait?

Pious is not one of the traits used to determine a religious knight, so ruleswise the answer should be yes. But how do you all feel about it?

I would say that it would make for an interesting roleplaying experience. I'm thinking of Brian de Bois-Guilbert from Ivanhoe, specifically. The idea fits the genre and the conventions.

Definately, you just have to play to the old testament a lot.
As in screw eternity, this is here - right now.
Eye for an eye etc. If I win this battle I'll build a shrine type of stuff.

Having just looked at Greg's article about the Pious/Worldly Trait pair in which he says hat Otherworldly/Wordly might come closer to his intent, I would also be inclined to say yes.

An Impious Religious Knight would be concerned with living the Virtues of their religion and culture in th where and now. How you live and act in this world matters. Such a character would not be overly concerned with the "Kingdom of God" and questions such as "is it manifest in this world or is it a promise of the world to come?" Such a character would instead be concerned with following the rules of "good, Christian life" here and now.

There are many people like this today. They follow the behaviors expected of them because this is how they live life as a "good" person. Mystical, spiritual, and metaphysical concerns do not really enter in to it.

For Pagan knights much the same pertains. They follow the Virtues of their religion and culture because that is how a person is supposed to live.

A Religious Knight with low Piety might even feel that the priests and their musty, hidebound rituals are missing the point. Mouthing the words and professing to believe are less important than demonstrating right action and right living.

Otherworldly/Wordly might come closer to his intent...

I'd say Spiritual/Worldly.

On the face of it, I think Pious has basically the same connotations to most people as a Love (Deity) passion would. However both a zealous crusader and a reclusive monk might have high love God passions, but Spiritual/Worldly I think concisely captures the difference between them, and the similarities say between the monk and a reclusive pagan shaman.

Simon Hibbs

I've always seen pious as "overtly religious."


A low pious means he has little respect for the church as an institution, the clergy, and the general forms of religion, but, might value the ideals of the religion. A religious Christian with a low pious would probably be willing be humble and compassionate to the needy, but equally like to go tell the local bishop to suck an egg when he's asked to donate to the construction of a local cathedral.

Likewise a high pious but a low number in all the other religious virtues would value the form of religion, but not the values. The sort of knight that has a pious of 18 but 3 mistresses and a lust of 18 and so buys indulgences to cover his many sins rather than follow his religions teachings. The Godfather III has some characters who fit the bill.

I've always seen pious as "overtly religious."


A low pious means he has little respect for the church as an institution, the clergy, and the general forms of religion, but, might value the ideals of the religion. A religious Christian with a low pious would probably be willing be humble and compassionate to the needy, but equally like to go tell the local bishop to suck an egg when he's asked to donate to the construction of a local cathedral.

Likewise a high pious but a low number in all the other religious virtues would value the form of religion, but not the values. The sort of knight that has a pious of 18 but 3 mistresses and a lust of 18 and so buys indulgences to cover his many sins rather than follow his religions teachings. The Godfather III has some characters who fit the bill.


That's a very different take. I can see someone taking that view of the term in general usage, but it doesn't square at all with the description in the rules. I don't think it squares well with the opposite trait being 'Worldly' either. I'd definitely accept a description of the Godfather characters as being worldly in the conventional sense.

This interpretation would mean a very religious, spiritual churchman who was against the institutions of the church and ecclesiastical corruption would have a high Worldly. In fact, Jesus in the bible displays 'Worldly' behaviour, e.g. railing against the priestly classes. That doesn't seem right.

Martin Luther:
Pious 1 / 19 Worldly

Admittedly that can be avoided by choosing a suitable name for the reverse trait.

Simon Hibbs

As there are several discussions about chivalry I would like to add another question:
Can you be a religious knight (having all traits at 16+) and still have a low pious trait?

Pious is not one of the traits used to determine a religious knight, so ruleswise the answer should be yes. But how do you all feel about it?


Yes