hI fOLKS!

My name is Jose, from Spain and I´m new around here.
I´m a BIG fan of Song of Fire and Ice but unfortunately the roleplaying game published by Green Ronin didn´t match my expectations, I mean: the research work on the book is marvelous and very well written but I don´t like the so called "Chronicle System" developed for the game, with tons of six sided dice and he quite slow to play...

So, I started looking around the web another gamerules that could suit my tastes and the particular feeling of the Fire And Ice saga... so appear Pendragón the Greg Stafford page.

I´m amused with KAP5, I love this game and currently I´m researching around the web to find stuff thar can be used with KAP5 and the Song of fire and Ice saga... If someone around here have similar tastes wants to share their thougts, ideas or info about this topic I´ll be very interested..

Thanks a lot for reading this and please forgive the grammar errors, I can read English quite well, but writing coherent things is a little harder.

Bienvenido Jose.

Mi nombre es Damon y hablo un poco de Castellano.

Welcome Jose.

I'm Damon and I speak some Spanish.

I'm absolutely certain that Pendragon would be the best fit to SoF&I. All the characters are very muched ruled by their traits, passions and hates. No one is immune from death, the story is just the result of a series of events going back years so dynastic element at play etc.


There are just so many good things that match Pendragon.

What I feel is missing, is

1. A House. / political system for Pendragon. (Have a look at the excellent Warlords of Alexander, a free download on www.basicroleplaying.com). WoA has a system for creating 'Houses' which could be tweaked for Pendragon.

2. Social combat. There are many non knightly characters that can defeat a knight at court.

3. Careers for non knightly characters

4. Magic of the strange variety.

Alternatively, why not base the game in the British Isles since SoF&I has stolen many ideas from British / European geography / history.

Imagine the Seven Kingdoms as Cornwall, Ireland, Scotland, Wales , Isle of Man, Logres and Saxon lands.

Use the plots and story lines but apply to Pendragon. Uther Pendragon as the last Targaryans.


If you do find anything, do please keep us updated.

I agree that it would be quite easy to play a ASOIAF campaign using Pendragon. I'd even disagree with Earl/Damon that you need additional stuff for Houses and non-knightly careers. After all, most of the movers and shakers are nobility, and that is already covered by Pendragon. Just as in Pendragon you have commoners running around, but you'd still play a knight. Same thing with magic: both in Pendragon and ASOIAF magic seems very much of the plot device type, something strange that most characters don't understand a bit and even fear, but which is used to advance the plot. Just like you would not expect to play Merlin, similarly you wouldn't expect to play one of the rare magic users in ASOIAF. (YMMV, of course: no one is stopping you from playing the characters you like, I am just saying there is no reason why you'd really need them as PCs.)

Social combat that no doubt plays a part in ASOIAF could be handled by courtly skills, particularly Courtesy, Intrigue and Orate. But then again, depends very much on the type of campaign you are playing. Whether the characters are in the vipers' nest that is the court of King Joffrey, where putting a foot wrong might get you killed, or if they are part of the armies fighting it out, where the courtly skills are of lesser importance. Potential 'damage' from Courtly Battle could be Honor, but also Glory, as the whispers downplay your heroics and elevate your fumbles. In my GMing experience, hitting players in the 'experience points' really tends to foster resentment towards an NPC, even more so than hit point damage.

The by far the biggest shift in my mind from regular Pendragon is the shift in the tone. ASOIAF is very much a gritty, might-makes-right type of world. Honor is something you should be seen to have, but it can also get you killed. Well, that is also true in Pendragon, but while in Pendragon, you are good knights making the world a better place under Arthur, the just and wise ruler, in ASOIAF you are scrambling to try and survive in a world filled with warring armies and mad kings, and your morals are probably distinctly greyish in color, if you have survived thus far.

I'd ditch Religious Bonuses and Glory gained from those, if any. I might retain the Glory from Chivalric, but make Chivalric harder to obtain. Also, I probably would not give any game mechanical bonus from that, as the good guys tend to die as easily if not more so in ASOIAF.

I think the lethality of Pendragon combat provides plenty of grit. I only know the TV series, not the books, but combat as depicted there looks very Pendragon.

For bonuses, I'd go with different bonuses by culture/house. So the Iron Islanders would get one set of traits, the Lanisters another, etc.

One issue is that due to the constraints of running a party you can't effectively run a world-spanning epic storyline in the same way the books do. You'll need to pick one story line, such as say a Black Watch party and stick with it. I'd recommend going the Black watch route because that way you can have characters from any background in the same group.

Simon Hibbs

hI fOLKS!

My name is Jose, from Spain and I´m new around here.
I´m a BIG fan of Song of Fire and Ice but unfortunately the roleplaying game published by Green Ronin didn´t match my expectations, I mean: the research work on the book is marvelous and very well written but I don´t like the so called "Chronicle System" developed for the game, with tons of six sided dice and he quite slow to play...

So, I started looking around the web another gamerules that could suit my tastes and the particular feeling of the Fire And Ice saga... so appear Pendragón the Greg Stafford page.

I´m amused with KAP5, I love this game and currently I´m researching around the web to find stuff thar can be used with KAP5 and the Song of fire and Ice saga... If someone around here have similar tastes wants to share their thougts, ideas or info about this topic I´ll be very interested..

Thanks a lot for reading this and please forgive the grammar errors, I can read English quite well, but writing coherent things is a little harder.

Welcome Jose,

Pendragon is a great game system and I think it will suit your needs well.

I'd also recommend looking at the 4th edition of Pendragon. It's available on drivethruprg.com and includes rules not just for knights but also for characters from common backgrounds such as peasants and priests. Another useful book will be the Book of Knights and Ladies for Pendragon which includes rules for characters from diverse backgrounds around Europe, including Spaniards.

If your running a campaign where the players own small amounts of land the Book of the Manor for Pendragon would be a useful book, but if you're running a campaign where the players have large holdings you'll probably have to look at another system. For running a province or nation ideally I'd say use the Book of the Baron for Pendragon but it's not available yet, so instead I'd recommend Birthright by TSR. Birthright includes rules for running a province or even a kingdom and includes it's own background but you can freely ignore those because the rules for running a kingdom are not dependent on the setting.

The best system for resolving mass battles will vary depending on what you look for in a system. For a descriptive system Book of Battle and the Book of Armies for Pendragon. If you're looking for something more like a full wargame I'd recommend either the DBA rules or Hordes of the Things. Both DBA and Hordes use very similar systems and can be learned and played in a few hours at most. They can even be used together.

I've thought about doing this myself for some friends who love Game of Thrones and D&D, but abhorred Arthurian Pendragon. I think Pendragon's a great fit for really recreating the books, assuming some changes in the starting passions, traits for each culture, and the religious traits (the Seven, Old Gods, Drowned God?). I'm also tempted to take out the Chivalry bonus. Overall, changing traits and passions to reward having a strong personalty, rather than a chivalrous one, would be my goal. I might even double or triple high trait scores for Glory, just to reflect the strong and stubborn personalties in the books better (seems like Cersei has a high lustful and Tywin a high Prudent). I think Love family, Loyalty, etc. should also be more random, rather than starting universally high as in Pendragon (I mean Roose Bolton's Loyalty(Liege) seems pretty low to me). And perhaps with a corresponding toning-down of the penalties for failing a passion roll, maybe it should just decrease the passion on a fail. I think I'd also be pretty generous about handing out Directed Traits too. I really like the idea of using Intrigue or Orate to intentionally invoke another character's trait (NPC or PC) too. I think would be pretty generous about empowering those skills in verbal disputes.

As far as household income, I think a simple "narrative" system like that in Book of the Manor would be best (i.e. just tell the players how much money they got). In the rough-and-tumble wars of the five kings I can't imagine having time to go back and tend the dovecotes. Just give the knights income for accomplishing things instead: great you captured an Lannister knight, now you can afford to buy a new Charger and hire some bodyguards so you don't die in the next battle. That sort of thing. Another option would be having a monthly Winter phase, more like a week, just to keep things apace. I think then you could have the events in the books going on in the background, with the PKs participating in whatever manner seems appropriate depending on which House they're loyal to. If you want financial management to be a bigger part of the game, make the PKs have to seek out rewards from members of the Great House and just give them large holdings. E.g. you gain Harrenhal for defeating the Mountain, that is worth 60 libra/gold dragons! Then allow them to buy retinue, new fortifications, equipment off the year 530+ list. This would give plenty of incentive to backstab other knights, etc.

Finally, I would avoid Birthright. I've used the system and found it incredibly clunky and really just a separate game that doesn't mix well with any RPG-playing. Pendragon's battle and economic systems are way better for actually playing an RPG with focus on the characters. I'd also say that about the I think you'd get the best Song of Ice and Fire experience from staying pretty close to Pendragon and cutting down on the Romantic and Chivalrous elements.

I'm really interested in perhaps checking out Saxons! and 4th edition for some broader options about playing non-knights, like intriguers or what have you, with alternate traits and passions. Does anyone know anything else about whether those types of PCs would work.

Mind you, these are all just my ideas on how to handle it. I think there's been some great suggestions (perhaps with the exception of Birthright, ;-) which I've always tried to love but which has always let me down).

One important question that you may need to decide early on is: How important in the grand scheme of things will your players be and will managing their lands be part of the game?

If you handle their lands simply as a source of income without bothering with game mechanics the basic Pendragon system will be fine. If you do want to deal with their lands in detail and if they are "merely" knights, than Book of the Manor will be very useful. Howeverif they're going to be barons, dukes, and/or kings, than you may want to look for another system.

Besides what's already been mentioned another option for a kingdom management system, is Grunt: Kingdoms for the game Grunt. It's only $2.99 US, and it's available for download here:
http://www.wargamedownloads.com/item.php?item=303&pics=

I haven't tried it, but I think it MAY suit your needs

Hi there!!! ;D

Before I begin, is my wish to day a big THANK YOU to all de people who have replied my topic. Second, I apologize for the long time since my original post, I've quite busy but thanks to God tomorrow is holiday here in Spain.
Even more, I´m eager with the welcome you give to me.

I have read all your messages and would say a lot of things, but for the beggining let me point some ideas:

1)
Alternatively, why not base the game in the British Isles since SoF&I has stolen many ideas from British / European geography / history. Imagine the Seven Kingdoms as Cornwall, Ireland, Scotland, Wales , Isle of Man, Logres and Saxon lands.
Use the plots and story lines but apply to Pendragon. Uther Pendragon as the last Targaryans.

* Uuuumh, really I never thought about that but the idea suits me and I think I should play in that way. Yeah, now it seem quite obvious, but the "official" Pendragon storyline has a lot do with ASOIAF. I will consider this in the future, I´ve I finally can play "The Great Pendragon Campaign" with my group. Thanks.

* On the other hand, one of the main reason why I love so much ASOIAF is for raw personal charisma of many characters like Tyrion, Jon Snow, STANNIS, or Mance Rayder (one of my favourites). Sadly,
Sure, Arthur, Gawain, Lancelot, Morgana are great but too classical and previsible...

* Also, things like Night Watch, The Wall, The Crannogmen or Dorne are very far from the Pendragon concept I think.
I really LOVE the Night Watch: a bunch of young misfits, dressed in black, sharing a big brotherhood feeling and under severe discipline... just add power metal music to the mix, and they are just like me in high school years -ahahahaaa ;D


Social combat that no doubt plays a part in ASOIAF could be handled by courtly skills, particularly Courtesy, Intrigue and Orate. But then again, depends very much on the type of campaign you are playing. Whether the characters are in the vipers' nest that is the court of King Joffrey, where putting a foot wrong might get you killed, or if they are part of the armies fighting it out, where the courtly skills are of lesser importance. Potential 'damage' from Courtly Battle could be Honor, but also Glory, as the whispers downplay your heroics and elevate your fumbles. In my GMing experience, hitting players in the 'experience points' really tends to foster resentment towards an NPC, even more so than hit point damage.

Yep, it sound GREAT. Very cool ideas here.. thank you. Anyway, the courtesy and scheming system presentes in the basic book of ASOIAF RPG is awesome, and I really prefer that one. But yes, damagin honor, glory using social skills to invoke NPC traits are very very good ideas, I take note. Thanks.


If your running a campaign where the players own small amounts of land the Book of the Manor for Pendragon would be a useful book, but if you're running a campaign where the players have large holdings you'll probably have to look at another system. For running a province or nation ideally I'd say use the Book of the Baron for Pendragon but it's not available yet, so instead I'd recommend Birthright by TSR

I know birthright and I have taken a look to the main box... Me too never liked it too much, but I must recognize that never read books fully. Perhaps it´s time to take another look, because I can extract nice ideas and artwork.
As ever, I think the system presented in the corebook of ASOIAF RPG for land managemente is great, too easy and quite limited, but useful, most people will like it.


I'm really interested in perhaps checking out Saxons! and 4th edition for some broader options about playing non-knights, like intriguers or what have you, with alternate traits and passions. Does anyone know anything else about whether those types of PCs would work.

I have Saxons! and Land of Giants. Both books are useful for fleshing out the world around Britain. In fact, I´ve ben using material from that books in my Yggdrassil RPG campaign.
Yggdrassil is a french RPG by 7eme Cercle (translated into Spanish) wich is setted in Lands of the North around V-VII centuries, just after de fall of Rome... and the official "campaign" presented in the corebook is set in 500 AC, in the time of King Froda, when the norsemen of Jutland and Saxons started invading the neighboring British Isles.... is this setting familiar to anyone??? ;) YES. With this game you can add a lot of detail to Saxons and Norsemen in your pendragon campaigns.

Even more, there´s a brother game to Yggdrassil called "Keltia". This game is EXACTLY in the setting of Pendragon, in fact, you can see King Arthur in the cover artwork. BUT, this game is focused in the celtic and tribal version of Arthur, the welsh one I think. The conflict with the invaders from the north is one the main plotlines of the official campagin (again, I think this is familiar to us, don´t?? ;D
Although, theres nothing of chivalry, anachronysm os things like that in the game, it is like things really were in the 5th century. A nice spin on the arturian legend, I think.

I don´t know if these games have benn published in English. Check http://www.7emecercle.com/ for more info


I'd also recommend looking at the 4th edition of Pendragon. It's available on drivethruprg.com and includes rules not just for knights but also for characters from common backgrounds such as peasants and priests. Another useful book will be the Book of Knights and Ladies for Pendragon which includes rules for characters from diverse backgrounds around Europe, including Spaniards.

Well, actually I have the third edition of Pendragon wich have benn published in Spain in 1992 if I recall correctly. The one with Arthur and the hawk, with Ginebra in the Snow, in the front of the castle as cover.
Also, I have "Caballeros Aventureros" and "Magica Céltica"... if I have understood well, this core books make the body of Pendragon 4th edition, so... I can say I play that version of the core rules. (I also have 5th and the Great Pendragon Campaign in .pdf)

One thing I want to complain is that the battle system presented in the core book is a little hard for me and complicated, and too much roleplaying oriented. The "strategy" factor and possible use of counters or miniatures is absolutely not comtempled... and even I like roleplaying, I think that a nice battle system should be more tactical and give the chance yo
use counters, player´s intellegence and tactical skills and it should be not so ramdon and attached to luck and dice rols, like the one presented in the book. I didn´t like it, it´s too complicated.

If you handle their lands simply as a source of income without bothering with game mechanics the basic Pendragon system will be fine. If you do want to deal with their lands in detail and if they are "merely" knights, than Book of the Manor will be very useful. Howeverif they're going to be barons, dukes, and/or kings, than you may want to look for another system.


Besides what's already been mentioned another option for a kingdom management system, is Grunt: Kingdoms for the game Grunt.

Thanks, I will take a look at it, and Warlords of Alexander too, I just downloaded it.


The by far the biggest shift in my mind from regular Pendragon is the shift in the tone. ASOIAF is very much a gritty, might-makes-right type of world. Honor is something you should be seen to have, but it can also get you killed. Well, that is also true in Pendragon, but while in Pendragon, you are good knights making the world a better place under Arthur, the just and wise ruler, in ASOIAF you are scrambling to try and survive in a world filled with warring armies and mad kings, and your morals are probably distinctly greyish in color, if you have survived thus far.

Yeah, Westeros is dark and gritty, but I want my players to be the NICE guys and I will explain to them that they should act like heroes in a dark world and try to be light. Possible, my campaign will start in the Riverland with a custom minor house for my players.. I want to play something like the starting adventure of the Pendragon corebook (the one with Sir Jaradan, Sarum, Count RObert... and these things).
It should be very focused in the classical knights and chivalry concept, BUT, just in the beggining.. then I want them to suffer all the events narrated on the books and participate in them.

And here I have a problem.. I do have 8 players, most of them will be Knights and actively play in the adventure, hunting, tourneys and that things, BUT, one of them is a girl.. and I really don´t know what to make with her since I don´t want to force her to play with a Knight. And if she can´t be a knight she would loose a lot of the game activities like hunting, adventuring whit male knights, etc... there are very few knightwomen, even in Westeros.
Actually I can give her a noble woman, or a kind of minstrel traveller.. I don´t know and I´ll be happy if someone can give some ideas.
Women in the Middle Ages were always in home and it´s hard to me to find some kind of "character class" to join her to the party of male adventurers.. most of them knigths, as aforementioned.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, I have ranted too much and for sure I have more things to say, but here is the last one :

Sadly, after reading a again the Pendragon corebook (in fact is not mine, is my cousin´s) I found that some concepts are quiete hard for a group of newbies in roleplaying, like 5 of my 8 players. I mean character traits, passions, manor managemente and the not-good-for-me battle system, among other things.
So I decided to start with the original system presented in ASOIAF RPG by Green Ronin... yes, it is SLOW and don´t suit my gaming needs fully, but is EASY and new players-friendly.

So, I will begin with that game and THEN, take a jump to Pendragon... like passing from D&D to AD&D.
Of course, I will share my notes and ideas with you.
By the way, I have read and taken A LOT of things from Pendragon to use in my ASOIAF RPG game, like hunting rules, solitaire adventures, background info, adventures...

HERE I MUST END. Thanks a lot for your time and comments, I wil reply as ever ,soon.

Second, I apologize for the long time since my original post, I've quite busy but thanks to God tomorrow is holiday here in Spain

I mean only in my city, Pontevedra. San Benito´s Day.

And here I have a problem.. I do have 8 players, most of them will be Knights and actively play in the adventure, hunting, tourneys and that things, BUT, one of them is a girl.. and I really don´t know what to make with her since I don´t want to force her to play with a Knight. And if she can´t be a knight she would loose a lot of the game activities like hunting, adventuring whit male knights, etc... there are very few knightwomen, even in Westeros.
Actually I can give her a noble woman, or a kind of minstrel traveller.. I don´t know and I´ll be happy if someone can give some ideas.
Women in the Middle Ages were always in home and it´s hard to me to find some kind of "character class" to join her to the party of male adventurers.. most of them knigths, as aforementioned.


Umm, the best thing is just to ask her what she wants to play. She could always be a female knight along the lines of Brienne of Tarth or the Mormont women. The main difficultly, system-wise, would be the (brutal) childbirth tables, since this is a such a dynastic game that does require having children to carry on your line. Maybe she is infertile and could adopt her heir?

Personally I've been having great fun playing an arrogant, womanizing male knight. Roleplaying after all is an escape. And playing the other gender is hardly a leap considering that other systems have us playing all sorts of non-human species.

The sexism inherent in the Pendragon world can be hard to take sometimes. But then again there's also the fact that this was a world where everyone's destiny was pretty much determined by birth -- some men born to fight and rule, others to toil in the fields as oppressed peasants. A lot of Pendragon -- and to a lesser extent the Song of Ice and Fire -- seems to be about the struggle to do good in an evil world.

I think Cat Rampant's got good advice here. From the GM perspective, my wife decided to go with a fighting pagan woman knight even though I told her about the difficulties in Pendragon's society and the childbirth death. She's made it five years so far without too much trouble at all despite remarks from the NPC knights. She enjoys hamming it up, and I even let her find an Irish steward husband because it's not like she could marry above/equal to her class. Alittle ahistorical, but more fun for all.

We allowed female knights as well. They are very rare, but not unheard of. They'll have some trouble at first to be taken seriously, but with two of them having made to the Round Table, the idea is not that outlandish anymore. :) Ruleswise, we relaxed the childbirth table a bit, and for a PC woman (knight or otherwise), the death in childbirth is commuted into a Major Wound instead. Yes, this does mean that they don't die in droves, which I personally find a good thing.

We allowed female knights as well. They are very rare, but not unheard of. They'll have some trouble at first to be taken seriously, but with two of them having made to the Round Table, the idea is not that outlandish anymore. :) Ruleswise, we relaxed the childbirth table a bit, and for a PC woman (knight or otherwise), the death in childbirth is commuted into a Major Wound instead. Yes, this does mean that they don't die in droves, which I personally find a good thing.

I have added a house rule that when a family member should die you can expend some money to get the help of a good doctor. It costs 60 denarii to go from death to ill and another 60 denarii to go from ill to healthy. the only tricky one is when both child and mother die. In that case only one can be saved.
BTW: this rule also applies to other family members.

I have added a house rule that when a family member should die you can expend some money to get the help of a good doctor. It costs 60 denarii to go from death to ill and another 60 denarii to go from ill to healthy. the only tricky one is when both child and mother die. In that case only one can be saved.


I think this is way too cheap. It should be at least 1 librum. At least. The spousal & child mortality is one of those big issues around which the dynastic aspect of Pendragon revolves. 60d is a pittance to most knights, even landed ones. After all, why should I bother with Rich lifestyle, when I can bank the 3 libra and save my wife & children 12 times? (Granted, Rich has other benefits as well, but you see my reasoning, I am sure.)

We do allow the use of Glory Points (which can be banked, no need to use them the instant you cross the 1000 Glory threshold) as fate points. Normally these are used in battle to forestal an enemy crit, but recently, we agreed that they can be used also to cancel a death of your child in the child mortality table if you roll poorly. This is to help PKs to get heirs, while also having a bit of a sting to be paid.

Yggdrassil is a french RPG by 7eme Cercle (translated into Spanish) wich is setted in Lands of the North around V-VII centuries, just after de fall of Rome... and the official "campaign" presented in the corebook is set in 500 AC, in the time of King Froda, when the norsemen of Jutland and Saxons started invading the neighboring British Isles.... is this setting familiar to anyone??? ;) YES. With this game you can add a lot of detail to Saxons and Norsemen in your pendragon campaigns.

Even more, there´s a brother game to Yggdrassil called "Keltia". This game is EXACTLY in the setting of Pendragon, in fact, you can see King Arthur in the cover artwork. BUT, this game is focused in the celtic and tribal version of Arthur, the welsh one I think. The conflict with the invaders from the north is one the main plotlines of the official campagin (again, I think this is familiar to us, don´t?? ;D
Although, theres nothing of chivalry, anachronysm os things like that in the game, it is like things really were in the 5th century. A nice spin on the arturian legend, I think.

I don´t know if these games have benn published in English. Check http://www.7emecercle.com/ for more info


Yggdrassil and Keltia are both being translated into English and published by Cubicle 7.

Yggdrassil is due out in a couple of months (http://www.cubicle7.co.uk/our-games/yggdrasill/) and Keltia will come later.

:D The BEAUTY of Pendragon is in its simplicity. the rules are fairly complete but i dont think they are Overly complex. :) so u could REALLY adapt ANY background to the games SYSTEM :) It would take a lil work...BUT making a Non-knightly calss would NOT be hard. at all.... :)

My recommendation is to get a copy of Land of Giants for Pendragon and Cthulhu Dark Ages and run a game set on an Ironborn longship out of Pyke. ;)

Sometimes it can seem daunting to port Pendragon to another setting as you need to decide on starting cultural values for skills (and possibly new skills) for the setting. I've been working on a Middle-earth port and found that time consuming and keep second guessing my numbers. My advice is to just get stuck in. If the skill is core to the social class eg sword for a knight then set it to 10. If it seems somewhat relevant give it a 5. Set the rest to 2. Once you have these baselines you can refine them a little to give more granularity and a modicum of balance.

A few things I'd recommend for ASOIAF -

- possibly a more generic weapon skill rather than needing to develop each weapon separately. Characters in ASOIAF who can fight tend to be fairly handy with whatever weapon is available and they frequently switch weapons based on the appropriate tool for the task at hand.

- certain non-knightly activities like sneaking and climbing are covered by a dex roll in pendragon. They might merit their own skill in ASOIAF.

- do up a few 'fathers classes' for non-nobles e.g. Son of a Travelling Merchant: +2 to Folk Lore, Recognise and Stewardship, +2 Selfish