Trying to better understand officers, especially regarding noble rank. If you roll "Knight and Officer" on the father's class table (BoK&L) what is your father's noble rank? Is your starting class then the same office as your father? A justiciar's son is auto a justiciar?

Does an officer have his own holdings? Perhaps you should treat an officer as one rank below his lord? (An earl's officer as a baron?)

What would the wealth/holdings be? (I know the wealth is probably "rich")

Sorry if I have missed this, but I've searched the forum and all of my books and can't find it myself. Thanks!

Trying to better understand officers, especially regarding noble rank. If you roll "Knight and Officer" on the father's class table (BoK&L) what is your father's noble rank? Is your starting class then the same office as your father? A justiciar's son is auto a justiciar?

Does an officer have his own holdings? Perhaps you should treat an officer as one rank below his lord? (An earl's officer as a baron?)

What would the wealth/holdings be? (I know the wealth is probably "rich")

Sorry if I have missed this, but I've searched the forum and all of my books and can't find it myself. Thanks!



IMHO and all that:

1. Offices are not inherited, nor are they classes as such, so the father's class would still be a knight (probably vassal one). They are appointments. Now that being said, I do see an argument down the line that 'my father served your father as a justicar, now let me do the same for you, m'lord' and it would carry more weight. However, it would not be automatic.

2. & 3. The officers of the realm can be high noblemen, but when it comes to a mere earl, his officers would be normal knights or bannerets at best. Very likely they'd be at least vassal knights with one manor, although as they are trusted vassals (usually), an argument could be made that they'd have more. Often extra manors would be a gift rather than a grant, though, for the duration of their service as an officer.

Part of the confusion is coming from BoK&L p 41. Table: 19 "Starting Class" shows across from "Officer, Feudal" (Father's class) that each of the sons is "As father" with + or - a wealth level. That's why I was wondering that the office was automatically inherited. But, of course, that wouldn't make sense that the all of the sons would inherit the office. So it must mean that the sons are the same noble rank as the father.

So, Morien, I think you must be right that the office is not inherited. But, like you also said, the son of a justiciar could have a better opportunity to enter that office. That makes sense.

Back on page 39, Table 17, a father could be a household knight, landed knight, or knight & officer. It does seem to me that an officer should have his own holding, but I suppose it could also be argued that he was a household knight if his office required him to spend most of his time at his lord's keep. The point is that the BoK&L doesn't specifically say either way. But on p 41 the son of that officer is supposed to be the same rank as his father and we don't have a clear answer what that rank is.

An illustration of how being an officer, while having benefits as Morien said, does not change one’s class:

During the Agincourt campaign the King of France had as his Marshal Sir John le Maingre, an Extraordinary knight (internationally famous). Le Maingre (aka Boucicault) devised an effective plan that would have handily beaten the English (flank and rear cavalry attacks while crossbowmen engaged the archers from the front & covered the foot advance). However, once the armies met the Dukes and other high nobles (who feudally outranked a mere knight) decided they wanted to get the Glory Points and ransoms themselves, and the rest is history.

So using this as an example, the office was given to a mere Vassal Knight as a reward/recognition for high skill/Glory that for whatever reason did not merit a rise in social class. I would expect the child of such an officer to be a Vassal Knight as well, with the financial and skill benefits of being a Marshal's child -- and possibly some Serious Expectations To Uphold as well.

Back on page 39, Table 17, a father could be a household knight, landed knight, or knight & officer. It does seem to me that an officer should have his own holding, but I suppose it could also be argued that he was a household knight if his office required him to spend most of his time at his lord's keep. The point is that the BoK&L doesn't specifically say either way. But on p 41 the son of that officer is supposed to be the same rank as his father and we don't have a clear answer what that rank is.

The rank naturally varies.
In the upcoming books officers generally get Gifts of land, which ranks them as landed