Had a PK who was interested in playing a Byzantine from BoKLs but we could not figure out a plauseable reason that such a Knight/Kataphraktos could end up in 485 Brittian. So he ended up rolling up a Cymric local instead, but was wondering besides as a trophey from defeating a Kataphraktos would there be any way for a Briton to have scale armour. Could the locals smiths make it - assuming it would be based on descriptions or examples of Lorica Squamata or such avalable in Lorges.
Of coruse for this we are talking personal armour not the barding of the Byzantine heavy Cavalry.


Also on the KAPD RGB book ie main rule book 4th edition, what armour would the mercencary knight in the picture on page 53 be wearing?

Cheers

Oh an sorry if this belongs in the "Your game" section

The Osprey Men-at-Arms series features scale mail right on the front cover of the "Arthur and Anglo-Saxon Wars" volume:

http://www.amazon.com/Arthur-Anglo-Saxon-Men-at-Arms-David-Nicolle/dp/0850455480/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1347805107&sr=8-1&keywords=Osprey+Arthur+and+the+Anglo-Saxon+Wars

The cover illustration, by the late great Angus McBride, depicts a 6th century "North British cavalryman." The interior of the book shows a Roman cavalry officer c. AD 400 wearing the armor as well.

As these books are generally well-resarched and informed by archeological evidence as well as contemporary descriptions and/or art, I think it's safe to say that scale mail is not only plausible, it should be one of the armor types available for the Early part of the campaign, or at least during the Uther period. According to Wikipedia, the Roman version was "a popular alternative to [chain] mail because it offered better protection against bludgeoning." The article goes on to say, "Scale armour offers better protection from blunt attacks than mail. It is also cheaper to produce, but it is not as flexible and does not offer the same amount of coverage. Forms other than brigandine and coat of plates were uncommon in medieval Europe, but scale and lamellar remained popular elsewhere."

So, I might rule that scale mail offered 8 pts of protection, +2 for vs. bludgeoning weapons. Price might be 160d in the city, more in towns.

A GM might rule that the armor is no longer manufactured by contemporary British armorers, and that the existing specimens are family heirlooms. They might be more common, therefore, in characters of Roman descent.


Best,


T.

I think the mercenary knight wears a mix of armor. He has chain leggings, but the shirt seems to be a battered scale. I think he probably scavenged it.

And yes scale could be present in britain at that moment. From a game point of view I would probably make the armor equal to normal chain, although Taliesin makes a good suggestion.

As for reasons a Byzantine is in britain. You could look up the history of Palomides (although he came to see what it meant to be aknight I think). But some ideas I would play with:
- He is searching for a lost family heirloom or maybe some other artefact and has tracked it to Britain.
- He was a mercenary and followed Aurelius to Britain (or maybe his father did).
- He has a dark secret back home (fell in love with the wrong woman, insulted the emperor) and decided to go as far away as possible.

Thanks for the replys
Gives me something to thnk of regarding the armour.

As for the Byzantine, yeah we had thought similar things but the feeling with both player and GM was Brittian was so far away.

So, I might rule that scale mail offered 8 pts of protection, +2 for vs. bludgeoning weapons.

Alternatively, rule that scale is neither fish nor fowl on the mail/plate continuum and thus does not trigger any of the 'extra die of damage' special effects that are granted to maces, hammers, flails etc.

Regards
Luke

Excellent idea, Luke. I like that better!


T.

Well Scale Armor is found in the Book of Armies and The Great Pendragon campaign. It looks basically to have the same rules as chain but a bit more protective. The values vary from 12-15 points but in any case it looks to be more protective than Norman chain.

Also by the reading it looks as if it starts out around 12 and develops in strength to 14 around the 530s. Showing the east is still progressing technologically in the 6th century.

Hope this helps.

According to the Osprey book "Byzantine Cavalryman c. 900-1204", pp. 52-53 (which has pictures of the author wearing his reconstruction of the armor), the best/later Byzantine scale armor is actually scale (well, lamellar actually) over a full mail hauberk plus metal strips on the legs and arms. So I could certainly see how that qualifies as 12-14 point armor. But it would certainly cost far more than would Norman mail alone, and 485 Byzantium would not have been able to afford it (have the tech to make it for a rich noble yes, pay to equip a unit or somebody heading off to Britain no).

For scale and open faced helm alone -- which would be 485-era armor -- I like Taliesin's and Silburnl's approach.

I would also treat scale, lamellar, coat-of-plates, and other lots-of-overlapping-small-plates armors as identical from a combat point of view, the only difference being aesthetic, what the locals are used to making, and maintenance.

Cool Thanks for the ideas, and I didnt even think to look i the BoA.

Yeah I would imagine there would be a few grades of the Scale armour

Actually price is an interesting question. What is a suit of scale armor worth? Or scale barding for that matter?


In our campaign we handled it by a really awesome and epic quest, players travelling by boat an entire season stopping at various ports from France to Spain to Rome to eventually arriving at Constantinople. Finding a translator. Eventually they convinced a Veterani and a Smith to return home with them and they were able to get scale armor (and some tips on training their men and tactics before the Veterani died 2 years later.) The smith was able to produce the armor (at a cost of materials of 4 pounds sterling.)

That works for us for now, but what would the value be? This could also be useful for a later Land of Giants campaign (since the Norse did serve as Vangarian guard and thus had access to scale.)

Thanks in advance.

I found it relatively easy to bring foreigners to Britain, and I'll offer the following story in the hope that others may find it useful as inspiration for their own campaigns.
So here's the example from my own campaign of the reasons for a Byzantine (as well as a Zazamanc and a Occitanian) to be in Britain in 485:

They were mercenaries in Spain (where there was a Byzantine presence long after Rome fell). The Byzantine force was very polyglot, both because the Byzantines did hire mercenaries from the four corners AND because it allows the players to choose any background from the BoK&L.

Having fought a few battles the Byzantine army was routed by the Goths and the players hid in a cave while trying to avoid being slaughtered by pursuing Goths. They returned to the battlefield to see if they could scavenge anything of value, and among the bodies they see a few dead Vikings. They attempted to scavenge the armor and find one Viking who was in fact still living. The Zazamanc nursed him back to health (check to merciful) and when he had recovered the PKs discovered he was a Viking prince. He was so grateful that he offered to shower them with gifts if they would return home to Denmark with him, which of course they did.

On the trip north to Denmark, they stopped in London, had a brief adventure helping a local merchant, and made some local contacts who would be important later. Then they sailed to Denmark and played out the adventures in Land of Giants (and a few others involving Vikings). Finally, while sailing home from such an adventure, they were blown off course in a storm and found themselves in crippled longship at the mouth of the Thames. Of course they rode the tide into London and found out that the Earl of Salisbury, King Uther, and company have nearly been wiped out by a Saxon army. Clearly in need of warriors to replace the fallen, and impressed by their not insignificant reputation, the Earl was willing to hire them on as household knights, and eventually gave them manors.

The rest, as they say, is history (or the GPC...).

this is the kind of subject switch that deserves its own thread



I found it relatively easy to bring foreigners to Britain, and I'll offer the following story in the hope that others may find it useful as inspiration for their own campaigns.