Situation 1.
I marry a eligible lady who is in possession of 2 manors, we live together in wedded bliss and she gives me a son. Unfortunately a few years later she passes away.

What happens to her manors?

I think you would hold them till your son comes of age then he takes possession of them as his inheritance. Then when you die he gets yours too.

Situation 2.
I marry a eligible lady who is in possession of 2 manors, we live together in wedded bliss, unfortunately a few years later she passes away.

What happens to her manors?

Do her family then get back right of possession?

The reason I ask is Lady Gwiona second handmaiden to Countess Ellen passed away and she was married to Sir Odrig (Wyrm Slayer). He fortunately had a son with her so I guess he still has a claim on the manors.

Cheers,

BigSteveUK

Situation 1.
I marry a eligible lady who is in possession of 2 manors, we live together in wedded bliss and she gives me a son. Unfortunately a few years later she passes away.

What happens to her manors?

I think you would hold them till your son comes of age then he takes possession of them as his inheritance. Then when you die he gets yours too.


Yes, that's correct.
As rightful warden of your own child, you would hold them.




Situation 2.
I marry a eligible lady who is in possession of 2 manors, we live together in wedded bliss, unfortunately a few years later she passes away.

What happens to her manors?

Do her family then get back right of possession?


Yes, they do.



--Greg

There's some more discussion of this sort of thing in these threads:

http://www.weareallus.com/theroundtable/index.php?topic=22.0
http://www.weareallus.com/theroundtable/index.php?topic=119.0

Note especially, Greg's comment in the second thread about how the (now deceased) wife's family, being as she was the heiress, will almost certainly not have any viable (ie male) inheritors. Given that point, if the marriage was childless the estate almost certainly escheats to the feudal superior to dispose of as he wishes. The widower, as a knight in (presumably) good standing with the lord is therefore likely to be in pole position when it comes to getting the lord to [grant|gift] him the fief in his wife's place.

Note also the bit about the feudal lord taking time to go over the fief with a fine-tooth comb and possibly reorganising the rights and responsibilities to his own advantage. So if the PC has invested in some revenue-enhancing improvements they may well find themself burdened with additional feudal duties if/when the fief comes back to them.

Finally note that if there is an heir to the marriage, then they still have to pay a relief to the lord before they are confirmed in the fief. This starts out negotiable but over time the convention becomes that the heir pays a year's income from the estate in order to come in to their inheritance.

Regards
Luke

So let's take some of the characters from KAP5 as an example.

Does this mean that the manors granted by marrying the likes of Lady Gwionna, Lady Adwen, Lady Indeg etc, revert back to Earl Roderick (or his succesor) should they die? If so, that's an eye opener for me. I'd always assumed they were with the marrying knight from the marriage onwards.

They only revert back if the knight and lady have no heir.
(Or if they were a Gift rather than a Grant, of course.)

I dug up this old thread because we had an issue forming in our first 10 years of the GPC:

Some of my players have been (un)fortunate in thier childbirth table results. Several times, they have rolled their wife dying upon childbirth (result 11-12 on Table 5-5, KAP pg 109). The next winter phase they immediately roll for a random marriage (table 5-4) and get another wife (complete with her own dowry/manors). Through these (un)fortunate results, these players have been quickly accumulating manors and dowry (I did not award extra glory beyond the first wife).

After reading this thread, I now realize I've been doing something wrong.

I would like to confirm:

A) If the wife dies and she did not have any surviving children, all the manors (from table 5-4) revert back to the dead wife's family. Does this include the money/dowry?


B) If the wife dies and she does have living children, the manors/dowry stays in trust with the living husband (child's father) until the child is 21. At which point they pay a relief (how much $) to obtain the manors/dowry. Does the father get to dispose of the excess wealth accumulated by these manors, or does this also have to stay in trust?
If the child doesn't live to 21, does the dead mother's family get the manors/dowry, just like A) above?

I would like to confirm:

A) If the wife dies and she did not have any surviving children, all the manors (from table 5-4) revert back to the dead wife's family.

Yes. However given there was no suitable (ie male) heir in the wife's family at the time of the original marriage, it's entirely possible that there is still no suitable heir. Of course any remaining females in the wife's family have suddenly become a lot more marriagable and their (actual or prospective) in-laws will be taking a close interest in this new inheritance.


Does this include the money/dowry?

I don't think so, no. This is just IMO however.



B) If the wife dies and she does have living children, the manors/dowry stays in trust with the living husband (child's father) until the child is 21. At which point they pay a relief (how much $) to obtain the manors/dowry.

How much relief to pay was debatable at the time and the subject of much case law. As time progressed it generally settled down to a customary sum of a year's income to the liege lord. Note however, that the liege lord's people will take the opportunity to go over the manorial accounts and can choose to alter the terms of the manorial charter as part of the transfer (so the new vassal may acquire extra obligations - an additional household knight say - if the fief has become more valuable since it was last granted).


Does the father get to dispose of the excess wealth accumulated by these manors, or does this also have to stay in trust?

The guardian has complete control of the manorial revenues. This (and the associated problem of guardians effectively asset-stripping the ward's inheritance in order to extract maximum value before losing control of it) was also the subject of much litigation in the period.



If the child doesn't live to 21, does the dead mother's family get the manors/dowry, just like A) above?


Yes. The heir dying after his mother but before achieving majority (or indeed, before getting an heir in his turn) is effectively the same as the heir predeceasing the mother or never being born at all.

Regards
Luke

Here is something I've always wondered:

For starting vassal knights, should they be required to pay their lord a year's worth of income to inherit (the aforementioned relief)? Or, do we assume that the father arranged for all that before his death (just like the equipment for knighting is assumed)?

That could be two universal taxes levied on their manor in one year - ouch!

First,
that was a very nice set of answer Mr lsilburn!




For starting vassal knights, should they be required to pay their lord a year's worth of income to inherit (the aforementioned relief)?



First characters? No, absolutely not.



Or, do we assume that the father arranged for all that before his death (just like the equipment for knighting is assumed)?



Assume it arranged or, ore likely, just ignore it entirely. For first characters.
Otherwise, I would be guided by the player's capacities and desires.



That could be two universal taxes levied on their manor in one year - ouch!


Two? One for the knighting of the lord's eldest son, yes.
But payment for the relief is not one of the Universal Payments.
It is up to that knight to get.

--Greg

Situation 3:
A knight marries a lady of two manors. They have a son. The knight dies.

Do the manors revert to the lady or are they inherited by the son?

Situation 3:
A knight marries a lady of two manors. They have a son. The knight dies.

Do the manors revert to the lady or are they inherited by the son?


They belong to the son, and his mother keeps 1/3 of the income until she dies.

While we are on the subject on inheritance, where does the dowry for the eldest daughter comes from?

For instance, is a successful knight has, say 6 manors and he wants to find a good match for his eldest, does he "gift" or "grant" one of the manors to her husband?

Does it come from the estate, from the mother's portion, or where?

While we are on the subject on inheritance, where does the dowry for the eldest daughter comes from?


Her family.



For instance, is a successful knight has, say 6 manors and he wants to find a good match for his eldest, does he "gift" or "grant" one of the manors to her husband?


He could, if it is vacant.
Normally, breaking up an inheritance is not allowed.



Does it come from the estate, from the mother's portion, or where?


If the father knight had acquired some other lands, outside of his inheritance, he can dispose of those if he wishes. but he must keep the core inheritance intact.

Land is precious. It is not given away to daughters.
It is unlikely that a woman has manors as her dowry, unless her father is very very rich.

Land is precious. It is not given away to daughters.
It is unlikely that a woman has manors as her dowry, unless her father is very very rich.



How come then that over half of the women on the 'Marry within your class' come with manors? Some even with two...

fg,
Thijs

Land is precious. It is not given away to daughters.
It is unlikely that a woman has manors as her dowry, unless her father is very very rich.



How come then that over half of the women on the 'Marry within your class' come with manors? Some even with two...



I as feeling unusually generous towards player knights.
I would change it now.

I as feeling unusually generous towards player knights.
I would change it now.




I've certainly been stingy with my players. Marrying below their class is as per the rulebook, but everything else requires roleplaying and the investment of time and money by the players, especially if there's land involved. A couple of them are still going for heiresses/widows, but unless they critical a number of relevant rolls or save the Earl's life, they're not going to have a chance.

I as feeling unusually generous towards player knights.
I would change it now.




I've certainly been stingy with my players. Marrying below their class is as per the rulebook, but everything else requires roleplaying and the investment of time and money by the players, especially if there's land involved. A couple of them are still going for heiresses/widows, but unless they critical a number of relevant rolls or save the Earl's life, they're not going to have a chance.


Probably the right thing to do. Keep possibilities open , but dont just pander to the players. Make em work for it. Thats the idea!!! :)