So, Having just Gained the Lordship of a free town in the forest Sauvage, worth £12 Per Annum, A PK wishes to Install a younger brother as Castellan.

If the Land is given in Gift, (IE for the term of the brothers Life) then its straightforward, the Brother is a Landed Vasssal, owes service to the elder, and gets the £12 and 12 Glory. end of story.

(Unless I am horribly wrong, and you get glory for the value of lands held by your vassals?)

Is Making the younger the Castellan any different?
As an officer, but not a landed vassal, where does the money and the Glory go?

Does it all goes to the Elder? - who then pays out monies to the younger to maintain him as just another annual expense, like paying for a household knight.

If the Elder sets the youngers maintainance at £9pa, essentially holding £3pa for himself, does the Younger get 9 Glory and the Elder 3?

Why would this maintanance money be any different to that paid to household Knight who is installed on a demesne manor as steward/garrison. ( I Think that answers the above question, but I'm keen to hear other views)

Cheers
Dan

As far as I know, the liege lord still collects glory from the manors of his vassals, and hence the PK would net the full 12 Glory/year even if he gives the estate as a Gift to his younger brother. The younger brother, as a vassal knight of that estate, would get the full 12 Glory as well, of course. Note that nowhere does it say that you can't have a contract where a knight is Gifted X libra from 12 libra estate, with the responsibility of protecting and administering the estate, gathering the income, and sending the excess back to the Lord.

Now, household knights and by extension officers are slightly different. As far as I know, you don't get Glory for the normal maintenance (4 libra for unmarried household knights), but you would get from the excess. So if the little brother is married but is drawing 9 libra income and spending it on the maintenance, he would get 3 Glory from that.

However, I think there was also a mention in the books that you get Glory for being a castellan of a castle equal to the DV value of the castle. So if the estate is fortified, you could also apply that ruling.

In the end, I wouldn't worry about it too much. The land/conspicuous consumption/DV glory tends to be small potatoes compared to Chivalric/Traits/Passions glory, at least in our campaign. 10 Glory/year will take 100 years to amount to one Glory Point, so it is hardly worth stressing about. Just pick a ruling and stick with it. As for me, I have found that players like getting Glory, so I try (when I remember) err on the generous side, especially when it encourages behaviour like subfeudalizing their faraway lands. :)

As far as I know, the liege lord still collects glory from the manors of his vassals, and hence the PK would net the full 12 Glory/year even if he gives the estate as a Gift to his younger brother. The younger brother, as a vassal knight of that estate, would get the full 12 Glory as well, of course.


Ah! That changes things a bit, Not for the worse, just for the different. I can see the Logic of it. I'm just not sure when & how I managed to get the wrong end of the stick.

Is it laid out clearly in any section of the Main Rulebook? (5th ed.)

Thanks,
Dan

Is it laid out clearly in any section of the Main Rulebook? (5th ed.)


I can check, but our reference was Book of the Manor (the v1.0 one), p. 8, under 'Gaining Glory for Land':

"Glory is gained for holdings that are held by the charter, even if they are subsequently subenfeoffed to another knight."

The glory for fortifications has been changed, too. It is no longer DV = Glory, but depends on the type of the fortifications.

In 5th edition rulebook, p. 105, under 'Passive Glory', there is a mention of Castle Holdings bringing Glory, but no mention of the amount.

p. 111, under 'Step 8: Compute Glory': "For example, holding a motte-and-bailey castle gains you 8 Glory per year."

Greg's website hosts the missing Glory tables (http://www.gspendragon.com/missingglory.html):

Holding Castles

This Glory is received annually by the knight enfeoffed. It is collected annually, up to 100 maximum per year, as with land.
Motte and bailey = 8/year
Small castle = 26/year
Medium castle = 36/year
Large castle = 51/year
Very strong castle = 66/year
Tintagel Castle = 55/year
Camelot, Pembroke Castle, Beaumaris Castle (the ultimate castles) = 100/year

So, Having just Gained the Lordship of a free town in the forest Sauvage, worth £12 Per Annum, A PK wishes to Install a younger brother as Castellan.
If the Land is given in Gift, (IE for the term of the brothers Life) then its straightforward, the Brother is a Landed Vasssal, owes service to the elder, and gets the £12 and 12 Glory. end of story.
(Unless I am horribly wrong, and you get glory for the value of lands held by your vassals?)

Both the lord and his vassal get the Glory


Is Making the younger the Castellan any different?

Yes


As an officer, but not a landed vassal, where does the money and the Glory go?

Money: To the Lord, not the office holder
Glory: both


Does it all goes to the Elder? - who then pays out monies to the younger to maintain him as just another annual expense, like paying for a household knight.

basically yes


If the Elder sets the youngers maintainance at £9pa, essentially holding £3pa for himself, does the Younger get 9 Glory and the Elder 3?

12 for older
9 for younger


Why would this maintanance money be any different to that paid to a household Knight who is installed on a demesne manor as steward/garrison. ( I Think that answers the above question, but I'm keen to hear other views)

It isn't

Splendid!

that clears things up.

Cheers
Dan

I recall where I got confused in this.

http://www.gspendragon.com/missingglory.html

in the Sample Glory Table,
under, Holding Land
it states, "This Glory is received annually by the knight enfeoffed." ie only by the knight who Holds the fief. no mention made of his lord.

perhaps it ought to read,

"This Glory is received annually both by the knight enfeoffed, and by the Lord (or Knight) from whom that fief is held."

Please put this int he Errata section of this forum.



I recall where I got confused in this.

http://www.gspendragon.com/missingglory.html

in the Sample Glory Table,
under, Holding Land
it states, "This Glory is received annually by the knight enfeoffed." ie only by the knight who Holds the fief. no mention made of his lord.

perhaps it ought to read,

"This Glory is received annually both by the knight enfeoffed, and by the Lord (or Knight) from whom that fief is held."