Hey good folks!

Have been playing rpg:s for almost 20 years and now I finally got myself a copy of Pendragon and I love it so far! Kudos! to you Greg and all the other contributors here on this site!

But the other day I became a bit confused over something i couldn't find in the rulebook (5.1) or any of the BoB or BoA.
Let me explain what happened:

During a particulary nasty Battle against the Ravaging Saxons one of the player knights got himself in trouble coming up against a giant of a man, a berserk wielding a 2 handed axe. It ended with the player knight getting himself split into two from the waist and up (euugh). As always there was a bit of murmur and outcry from the players, but then a question arose that got me thinking:

- But as the saxon was on the ground, wouldn't he have hit the horse's head before me? The player asked in a desperate try

I usually don't like it when the players hit the dirt, especially during our first adventure into the new campaign.
So as the nice GM I always try to be I started to look trough the rules if I could find anything about horses beeing in the way during a battle, or any kind of fight.
All I could find was the Horse stats in the core rule book, but nothing else.

Ofc as a GM I could just decide that the horse was hit first in this case, but things could just as easily get out of hand when there's no official rules about a certean issue.
I have a group of players that always tries to take advantage of every inch I tend to forget or didn't think about beforehand. So I can imagine them claiming there was "this" and "that" in the way the next time we get into a battle. So having a rule or hint would really help me clear this issue.

So to make a long story short my question is: - Are there any kind of rule(s) or guidelines for horses beeing focused or randomly hit during intense fighting that I missed?

Kind Regards from Sweden

I always figure that the -5 the other guy gets for attacking a horseman already takes into account the difficulty of hitting the rider, instead of the horse. I also allow people to specifically target the horse without the -5 for not being on horseback, which is a favorite tactic of Saxon footsoldiers. Get that horse down, and then mob the knight! Needless to say, my players are less than happy with the dastardly Saxon tactics. :P

I tend to do the same with big (unintelligent) monsters, have them attack the horse first. This gives the players some idea if they are in over their heads, when their horse gets shredded like in a blender. Then again, I don't like using big monsters, which are a wee bit too deadly for my tastes. Not until the PKs are in the Round Table or getting close, at least.

Ah yes, that's a good starting point, why try to hit the rider when you can focus down hes horse and then keep stomping the knight on the ground? ;)

Thank you Morien!

Ah yes, that's a good starting point, why try to hit the rider when you can focus down hes horse and then keep stomping the knight on the ground? ;)


Greed -- a charger is worth 20L. Veteran Saxons will go for the sure win, footsoldiers under the command of an NPC knight may not ("I killed his horse m'lord." "No, you killed MY horse!" thwak).

Morien, I like your approach.

So to make a long story short my question is: - Are there any kind of rule(s) or guidelines for horses being focused

You can see in the Book of Armies that there are several troops that deliberately target the horses first. Frankly, it seems very logical to me, and I've been tempted to do it as Morien has. But I usually only use it in a melee AFTER the foot men have lost a few rounds, as a sign of their desperation. My excuse is that war horses are expensive, and a very, very valuable item of loot.

On the other hand, you can see there too that the only people who can deliberately have their horse be hit instead of the rider are those crazy steppes nomads with their specially trained steeds.


or randomly hit during intense fighting that I missed?

I deliberately chucked out some rules I played with about the horses being hit instead of the rider during combat. It was something like:
Also roll a d6 in each melee when attacking a rider.
a. if the combatant is trying to hit the rider, then he does on a roll of 1-4, while a 5-6 strikes the horse instead
b. If he is trying to hit the horse, then he does on a roll of 1-5, but on a 6 strikes the rider
I chucked it as another unnecessary complicated diversion to the game
And I do not think that it would have counted in your melee anyway.


- But as the saxon was on the ground, wouldn't he have hit the horse's head before me? The player asked in a desperate try

Without knowing exactly how big a "giant of a man" is, I can suggest that he might have been big enough to negate the horse bonus anyway.
Also, with enough damage to cut a man in half, it's quite likely that there was enough damage to kill both man and horse.


I have a group of players that always tries to take advantage of every inch I tend to forget or didn't think about beforehand. So I can imagine them claiming there was "this" and "that" in the way the next time we get into a battle. So having a rule or hint would really help me clear this issue.

Rules lawyers. Hmph. My method is to have them show me the rules where it says what they want to happen could happen.
Otherwise, the GM statement is fiat.
I hope that is in the book somewhere :D


I usually don't like it when the players hit the dirt,

I suggest that you shelf that feeling for KAP
in this game EVERYONE DIES
Often it requires a player character of four being killed to drive a point home, such as berserkers are really really bad new
If you make an exception this time, they nose rules lawyers of yours will be all over you later on about this, and you will find the game tilting off balance because there are some things that ought to be run away from, not fought.


especially during our first adventure into the new campaign.

I often make exceptions in this circumstance too, frankly, especially if it is something that the character would know but the player does not know
so feel free to tell the players, when it occurs, that there are some things that ought to be run away from, not fought.
And yes, they probably get a Cowardly check for running away

there are some things that ought to be run away from, not fought.
And yes, they probably get a Cowardly check for running away
[/quote]

Not much to add on the other questions.
As stated everyone dies and if they stay when running away is better and somehow survive they get a reckless check in my campaign.

Greed -- a charger is worth 20L. Veteran Saxons will go for the sure win, footsoldiers under the command of an NPC knight may not ("I killed his horse m'lord." "No, you killed MY horse!" thwak).


Yes, depends a lot on the enemy type. 'Barbarians' (especially Picts and Cambrian knifemen) tend to go for the horse first, same with peasants and even bandits. After all, if a peasant/bandit shows up leading a charger, who is going to believe that he got it by legitimate means? Nope, he is a horse thief at best! Hence, its loot value is much less for them, nor can they really afford the upkeep to maintain the horse themselves.

This of course changes when facing knights (even robber knights) or higher-ups in Barbarian ranks. Even Saxon lords appreciate good steeds. They tend to go for the riders in order to capture the horse. I would see Saxon raiders doing the same if they are confident of victory. But in an 'even' fight? Time to think about winning first and looting second. After all, dead men get no loot.

[quote author=Ulf Ragnarsson link=topic=1786.msg14279#msg14279 date=1352792712]

[quote]
or randomly hit during intense fighting that I missed?

I deliberately chucked out some rules I played with about the horses being hit instead of the rider during combat. It was something like:
Also roll a d6 in each melee when attacking a rider.
a. if the combatant is trying to hit the rider, then he does on a roll of 1-4, while a 5-6 strikes the horse instead
b. If he is trying to hit the horse, then he does on a roll of 1-5, but on a 6 strikes the rider
I chucked it as another unnecessary complicated diversion to the game
And I do not think that it would have counted in your melee anyway.


- But as the saxon was on the ground, wouldn't he have hit the horse's head before me? The player asked in a desperate try

Without knowing exactly how big a "giant of a man" is, I can suggest that he might have been big enough to negate the horse bonus anyway.
Also, with enough damage to cut a man in half, it's quite likely that there was enough damage to kill both man and horse.


I have a group of players that always tries to take advantage of every inch I tend to forget or didn't think about beforehand. So I can imagine them claiming there was "this" and "that" in the way the next time we get into a battle. So having a rule or hint would really help me clear this issue.

Rules lawyers. Hmph. My method is to have them show me the rules where it says what they want to happen could happen.
Otherwise, the GM statement is fiat.
I hope that is in the book somewhere :D



especially during our first adventure into the new campaign.



I often make exceptions in this circumstance too, frankly, especially if it is something that the character would know but the player does not know
so feel free to tell the players, when it occurs, that there are some things that ought to be run away from, not fought.
And yes, they probably get a Cowardly check for running away



Thank you for your answers everyone! Great community this is!

And especially to Greg for your (long) answers! And for the tip to not be Mr. Nice and let the players do the research if they ain't satisfied with the rules! :)

As mentioned in the first post, I have played RPG's for a long time and tried almost everything out there in one way or another during the years, both Swedish RPG's and a lot of English/Amercian ones. But KaP is really a special piece of work and I can really feel the passion and the labor behind it when reading trough the book(s). I even tried to make my own RPG way back, but it never got beoynd the drawer it now rests in ;)

The sad part about this story is that the player that got the character killed, fell out of the game after this (i.e. she lost her interest) and the other 2 players didn't want to particiapte without her (yes it's a girl).

So that's why I'm asking this question, so I don't have to go trough this again, as I 've finally managed to convince them all to try KaP again after 6 months (guess I should try my wings as a salesman after all this "talking them back" hehe).

Speaking of making exceptions btw, I usually use a GM-screen to roll the dice behind, to avoid these kind of circumstances, but I got really interested in trying to roll the dice in the open for everyone to see, as mentioned in the rulebook. Guess the dice was a bit harch on me the first time, but at least I'm pleased we'll have another go soon. ;)

p.s. sorry for my bad grammars since english ain't my native language, but I hope you lot could at least comprehend my honest attempt to sound "swenglish" d.s.

//Ragnarsson

The shock of losing a player character is very common to newcomers in Pendragon
Even when it has been explained to them beforehand

But for newcomers in a new game, I do slacken on the cruelty of of open die rolls
Not by hiding the results
but more like this:
"Your character knows that this giant guy with the ax can probably chop him and his horse in half with a single stroke. Are you sure you want to fight him?"
Chop, groan
"OK, since we are new at this, let's throw in a special circumstance. Don't expect this to happen all the time. As the all-powerful GM I am going to rule instead that you got hit by just enough to go unconscious. This time."
Another alternative is to make it part of the game.
"OK, your soul is standing there looking rather shocked at the condition of the body lying on the ground. Then you hear this woman's voice. It says, 'Good knight, your destiny lies in finding me. I will bind you up, if you wish, but only on the condition that you come when I call you--not when you want, but when I want. Is that clear? Yes, I will heal you with this kiss."
Or have Morgan le Fay, or some other known villain offer healing. What a choice: life and debt to an enemy of the king, or death?
Once the players are more knowledgable, such mercy may be scrapped.
Blame it on the dice. :)

Your English is just fine.
Better than many Americans.

It can take a while to change mindsets - particularly from dungeon crawl style rpgs where the game is really about survival and death=failure to Pendragon where the game is about how your knight lives AND dies.

Once players dio, it can be pretty liberating. A fitting, awesome death is what every PK should be aiming for IMO.

The shock of losing a player character is very common to newcomers in Pendragon
Even when it has been explained to them beforehand

But for newcomers in a new game, I do slacken on the cruelty of of open die rolls
Not by hiding the results
but more like this:
"Your character knows that this giant guy with the ax can probably chop him and his horse in half with a single stroke. Are you sure you want to fight him?"
Chop, groan
"OK, since we are new at this, let's throw in a special circumstance. Don't expect this to happen all the time. As the all-powerful GM I am going to rule instead that you got hit by just enough to go unconscious. This time."
Another alternative is to make it part of the game.
"OK, your soul is standing there looking rather shocked at the condition of the body lying on the ground. Then you hear this woman's voice. It says, 'Good knight, your destiny lies in finding me. I will bind you up, if you wish, but only on the condition that you come when I call you--not when you want, but when I want. Is that clear? Yes, I will heal you with this kiss."
Or have Morgan le Fay, or some other known villain offer healing. What a choice: life and debt to an enemy of the king, or death?
Once the players are more knowledgable, such mercy may be scrapped.
Blame it on the dice. :)

Your English is just fine.
Better than many Americans.


Ah! Great ideas Greg! Even since it was 6 months ago we played I can still give the player the option of having the "dead" character resurrected, but with a twist, that makes the story and campaign go into it's own direction with maby an evil character offering him/her life back, but at a price (My GM-mind is sprawling with different ideas now).



It can take a while to change mindsets - particularly from dungeon crawl style rpgs where the game is really about survival and death=failure to Pendragon where the game is about how your knight lives AND dies.

Once players do, it can be pretty liberating. A fitting, awesome death is what every PK should be aiming for IMO.


The usual games I GM for this group is a couple of Swedish ones, called: Mutant (a game about what the world looks like after the apocalypse, and especially in Sweden and it's neighbours) and Western (A great game about the old American Wild West and different characters story trying to make a name for themselves in this time of chaos) and even though they both have a lot more rules about combat and skills (maby this is why I love the KAP system so much), they both are focused around the character and not the Family as in KAP.
So both me and the players are more used to NOT die. ;)

In a Pendragon game one PC fell in love with his lords (original but not liege lord) young wife (a great beauty with APP 30) after she nursed him back to health following a nasty boar-hunt goring.

They began a chaste affair and his lord died soon afterwards. He travelled to the court to see her only to find out that her stepson, the new lord had in effect sold her to a recalcitrant vassal, a hill chieftain, in exchange for the vassal resuming his required military service. There followed several adventures to get the chieftain to agree to divorce the good lady - culminating in some dragon slaying. The lady absconded from the county and hid in Amesbury abbey to avoid being auctioned off once more by her wicked stepson.

The pair continued their chaste affair.

Eventually the stepson found out and attempted to assassinate the PC. After that failed the PC went to his court to try to settle the matter. He was arrested and thrown in the dungeons. This sideplot almost wrecked a grand alliance against the saxons that the PCs had been working on for a decade. In the end the other PCs returned the good lady to the wicked stepson and the PC was released. He was not happy. He made plans to abduct the good lady and run away to Armorica, letting his young son take up his responsibilities.

There followed the most unlucky but awesome rolling I have ever seen in my life. He tested Intrigue to secretly get a message to the good lady. He had intrigue 19 and rolled a 20. Fumble. The stepson intercepts the letters and falsifies one agreeing to meet at a time and a place. To keep his hands clean he then passes this information to the saxon king of Wessex who has a feud with the PC after some previous prince killing.

I ask the player for a suspicious roll (he has 18) and he rolls a 19. Fail. He leaves his goodbye note and travels to the rendezvous. On the way he is met by a handmaid of young Morgan Le Fay (Morgan is in love with him after he attempted to rescue her in the kidnapping attempt wherein he killed the Prince of Sussex). The handmaid warns him not to go and offers to take him to Gorre to be Morgans lover. He rolls suspicious and Amor (lady) and crits both. Not only does he not trust the warning but he is near overcome by his feelings for the lady and presses forward to the inn.

At the inn wait 6 frankish mercenary knights hired by Cerdic of Wessex for some murder. I ask for an awareness roll as he enters the yard and he fumbles. Game over. The camera pans back, swords are drawn and the PC dies (taking two knights with him after critically impassioning his sword skill to 50).

It was a fitting end to the plotline (the good lady took poison soon after) and it was fun to play. The game engine really worked to drive the action forward and the repurcussions of the events are still rippling through the campaign almost a generation later.

Nothing like a good death in rpgs.

@ Morningkiller: Great story! Seems like I'm not the only one screeming: - Really? a 20? That's 5% b****y chance! Oh Comon! ;)

@ Morningkiller: Great story! Seems like I'm not the only one screeming: - Really? a 20? That's 5% b****y chance! Oh Comon! ;)


Big Time. Never underestimate the ability of a PK to fumble at the worst time.