What exactly is the story with Eliwlod, Madoc's son? Who is he born to, when/why does he disappear, what prompts his transformation, how does he die? Madoc is a fairly significant character early on and I'd like to emphasize Eliwlod more in the early going.

Never heard of him. But lo and behold: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliwlod. (I din't care to read the poem.)

Seems you can do what you want him.

It depends upon what you want to do in your campaign. Some never introduce him at all, Prince Madoc dies as scheduled and Arthur becomes king. In other campaigns, the Prince Eliwlod may take a more prominent position. Which then begs the question(s) that you pose.

In my current campaign, the dice went flaky one night and lo' and behold, one warrior woman did succumb to her lust (Chaste was 15 or 16, I don't remember exactly) as did Madoc and the tables said, a son was born. At first, the player thought I was completely in left field and she had destroyed the campaign (or seriously derailed it), but she then researched and found there was indeed a son of Madoc. As to why he never became king, maybe he never had a chance to pull the sword, or it would not pull for him. Lots of potential story hooks: Did Merlin enchant the stone?, Did Merlin place a spell on Eliwlod? Did Eliwlod realized Arthur was the better choice?

As I mentioned, it all depends upon the type of campaign you want to run.

Robert Schroeder

What exactly is the story with Eliwlod, Madoc's son? Who is he born to, when/why does he disappear, what prompts his transformation, how does he die? Madoc is a fairly significant character early on and I'd like to emphasize Eliwlod more in the early going.

As the others have said, do what you wish
He is just about as obscure a character as can be imagined
In GPC there is a scenario later where he does as in the poem: shows up as an eagle and prophesies

GPC p 224

Reading ahead last night, I saw that he first gets mentioned in Pentecost Court after Madoc's death at the Battle of Terrabil.

I did know about the later encounter and in terms of actual role/impact, he is insignificant. However, as half-brother of Arthur and son of a previous heir-presumptive, I want to give his existence more heft.

All of this helped. Thanks again.

I have introduced Eliwlod as a 'false Arthur' in my game. He is currently being sponsored by Prince Mark as part of his push to secure the crown of Logres for Cornwall in the late anarchy.

I figure on having him stick around as a confounding factor for a year or three, but dead before the big reveal of Arthur's parentage.

Regards
Luke

I have introduced Eliwlod as a 'false Arthur' in my game. He is currently being sponsored by Prince Mark as part of his push to secure the crown of Logres for Cornwall in the late anarchy.

I figure on having him stick around as a confounding factor for a year or three, but dead before the big reveal of Arthur's parentage.

As someone about to begin the year 507 I really like this idea and wonder if it's still practical to include in my own game. :-) He can still pop along as an eagle later on, but something along the lines of "mysterious orphan has been discovered who is heir to the throne" might make my group stop and pause for a minute and wonder if they're on the wrong side of history. :-)

Any more details you'd care to share?

I have introduced Eliwlod as a 'false Arthur' in my game. He is currently being sponsored by Prince Mark as part of his push to secure the crown of Logres for Cornwall in the late anarchy.

I figure on having him stick around as a confounding factor for a year or three, but dead before the big reveal of Arthur's parentage.

As someone about to begin the year 507 I really like this idea and wonder if it's still practical to include in my own game. :-) He can still pop along as an eagle later on, but something along the lines of "mysterious orphan has been discovered who is heir to the throne" might make my group stop and pause for a minute and wonder if they're on the wrong side of history. :-)

Any more details you'd care to share?


Here are the notes I drafted for my most recent game session:



Prince Mark Requests An Audience
A substantial army is camped outside Amesbury Monastery - there are easily several hundred cavalrymen in view and more can be seen coming from the west, passing across the river and moving east in the direction of the road to Levcomagus. Lookouts on the monastery walls can see the banners of Prince Mark of Totnes, Sir Brastias (a noted captain of mercenaries - formerly the leader of Uther's personal guard and his judicial champion) and the Praetor of Dorchester.

Awareness success = there is a sizeable contingent of continental troops (from Brittany and Frankland) in the column
Battle success = the troops in view are all mounted; they appear to have left their infantry and baggage train behind.

Prince Mark seeks an audience with Queen Igraine. This request poses a threat (since he might plan a treacherous attack or use the audience to spy out the Monastery's weak-points), but it also presents the opportunity to deceive observers with a bit of cunning playacting in order to present the defenders as more formidable than they actually are. The players have the chance to confer with King Pellinore and come up with various strategems to defend against the threat and/or exploit the opportunity - doubtless they will suggest suitable trait and skill rolls, grant double glory (they are in the presence of royalty) if any of them critical.

Prince Mark will be bringing himself, Sir Brastias and Prince Cynric of Wessex (the son of Cyning Cerdic) plus two other principals - Prince Eliwlod ap Uther (of which, see below) and Gereint of Penriddein, a pagan holy man who claims to be an ovate of the Order of Lugh and an intimate of Merlin. Mark's initial proposal is that each principal be escorted by four bodyguards (one 'knight' equivalent plus three 'guardsmen' equivalent), but he can be beaten down to either one 'knight' or two 'guardsmen' per principal.

Successive Awareness rolls will reveal:
• that Prince Cynric's escorts are a mixture of Saxons and native Britons (his 'knight' is an actual knight fr'instance)
• Mark is escorted by Breton troops from Idres' royal guard
• Eliwlod is guarded by his own escort (Cornish) plus Brastias and his people (hard-bitten mercenaries) as well
• Several members of this embassy (notably Brastias) are taking note of defenses and available defenders. Prince Mark is not one of them however (opportunities for Trusting vs Suspicious or Trusting vs Mark's Deceitful, to guide PK's response to this fact - anything from 'this Mark seems to be pretty genuine' all the way to 'why is he trying to get us off guard?')

The Presentation of Eliwlod
Mark introduces Eliwlod (who he ranks as a Prince and addresses as 'cousin') as the son that Igraine had with King Uther and who was later stolen away from Tintagel by Merlin. This youth is a well formed lad in his mid-teens - his garb is richly made and echoes the heraldry of the lance pennant that was sent in to the monastery earlier (Uther's blazon impaled with that of the Duchy of Cornwall).

Mark attests that Eliwlod was raised 'in gentle station' by one of his Cornish liegemen - kept in seclusion in order to preserve his foster parents from the wrath of the King at first (they feared retribution when they realised that Merlin had stolen the babe away and was a traitor) and then from the dangers posed by jealous rivals during the anarchy. Gereint of Penriddein is introduced as Eliwlod's tutor and he claims to have had a prophetic dream in which Merlin charged him with the boy's education. Sir Brastias adds that he is convinced that the lad is of Uther's blood (he claims to see a family resemblance) and has pledged his sword (and those of his following) to the boy’s cause.

Prince Mark also presents Prince Cynric, the heir to King Cerdic of Wessex, who testifies that his father is willing to bend the knee to Uther's son and be reconciled with the Pendragons in exchange for recognition of his claim to Vortigern's inheritance.

Mark concludes by outlining a grand bargain - Escavalon and Cornwall could unite with the heirs of the two great ruling houses, Pendragon and Vortigern, and this confederation would have sufficient authority to annoint both a king of Logres and a new High King of all Albion. He says that he intends to put this proposal to Natanleod in any case, but he hopes that Igraine will add her weight to his words and so assure that the impending bloodshed at Levcomagus will be averted.

Players can choose to roll their Suspicious against one or more of:
• Prince Mark's Deceitful 15
• Sir Brastias' Honour of 9
• Prince Cynric's Honest 14 (-5 for Cymry, so 9)
• Their own Hate (Saxons) score
to discover what they make of all this testimony.

The interrogation of the youth's provenance is conducted by Queen Igraine, King Pellinore and Abbot Deri. Igraine asks a number of questions about Eliwlod's foster family, the manner of his upbringing and what knowledge he had of his parentage, but overall is guarded and neutral in her attitude. Pellinore is much more openly sceptical, asking pointed questions of Prince Mark about how long he has known of Eliwlod's existence and why the existence of this youth is only being revealed now. Abbot Deri seems more inclined to take the story at face value (or at least not to dismiss it out of hand) but is evidently not happy at the presence of Gereint of Penriddein in Eliwlod's life and seeks assurances that the Prince has been raised as a good Christian.

It is not at all appropriate for anyone of the PK's station to intervene in such matters - they should remain silent and observe their betters (they can ask for suitable rolls to observe events and draw useful conclusions of course), however if a player insists on trying to participate then they must test Courtesy; generally speaking only if they do not succeed are they able to overcome their upbringing and share their contribution with the wider company. Upon such a failed courtesy intervention, then they blunder into the conversation without any sense of propriety (garnering an advancement test in Reckless) and the point they make, no matter how sound, will be studiously ignored; Prince Mark will make a condescending remark about the knight, slighting him for his impertinence and putting him firmly in his place.

If however the knight manages to critical their Courtesy roll, then their peerless mastery of the forms means that they somehow managed to engineer (or spot) an opportunity to insert themselves into the conversation and make their point without causing an overt breach of propriety - depending upon the nature of their intervention either Prince Mark (if their point undermines Eliwlod's credibility) or Queen Igraine (if their point reinforces Eliwlod's credibility) will rebuke the knight severely and insist that they leave the room immediately; it is clear that a raw nerve of some kind has been touched - the knight gets 20 glory (players can test Vengeful to see if they take offense at this rebuke; success gets them a suitable directed trait, whilst a critical gets them a full blown Hate passion against their persecutor).

The audience concludes without any clear resolution as Igraine stalls for time - she politely declines to join the Cornish army and neither recognises Eliwlod as her son, nor rejects the claim out of hand; those still in the room get to test Intrigue:

Fumble – you think Eliwlod is who it is claimed he is, but Igraine cannot recognise the fact. Perhaps she fears the reaction of Natanleod (or Pellinore, who is one of Natanleod's adherents after all and commands armed men inside the monastery)?
Failure – you think Eliwlod might well be Uther's son, but Igraine is playing for time before she reveals her intentions. These waters run too deep for you.
Success – you think Eliwlod might be Uther's son, but Igraine seems inclined to doubt it. Perhaps there was a hidden subtext to her questions that Eliwlod or Prince Mark failed to answer correctly?
Critical – you think that Igraine is definitely convinced that Eliwlod is an imposter. She has only refrained from denouncing him because Prince Mark has a small army camped outside the monastery.

Prince Mark is clearly unhappy at Igraine's refusal but does not press the point overlong - it is obvious (Intrigue - any result save fumble) that he thinks time is on his side. He takes his leave of the Queen, but ostentatiously agrees to Eliwlod's request that they 'leave a suitable guard of knights to protect my noble mother and the holy place here from any insult that might be offered by the soldiery and freeboters who range the country hereabouts' and gives the matter over to Sir Brastias to arrange with Abbot Deri (for those who take an interest, the Abbot declines to admit Brastias’ men to his precinct but does not object to them continuing to camp on the common land).

Mark is happy to extend his protection to any men of Natanleod's following (ie Pellinore and the PKs) if they wish to accompany him on his march towards Levcomagus, but warns them that if they decline his offer they would be wise to remain at Amesbury since riding around at the margins of a battle can be a dangerous business (Courtesy success: this is a not-so-subtle threat).

Wow! Great stuff. Please keep us posted with updates!


T.

Gotta agree with Taliesin, I found that very interesting. I was at firste a little unsure about using Brastias there - do you want him allied with Mark when he's supposed to be a chum of Arthur in the near future? - but considering his alliegence with Uther it makes sense he might leap at the first hint of a legitimite heir.

Presumably a meeting of the Collegium is never held or, if it is, not enough people agree to the claim to vote Eliwlod in. Nanteleod and Lot are likely candidates for initial votes and they can probably split the vote enough to make it a deadlock. With Nanteleod's death King Eliwlod would be a possibility but then the tournament is called, perhaps as a way for the British lords to select a king amongst themselves rather than elect what they see as a puppet of the Cornish and sop to the Saxons. (After all, if Eliwlod is chosen by God Almighty, he would win the tournament, right? Mayhaps the older lords are gambling they can outsword a beardless brat and his lackeys)

I'm considering dropping this into my own Year 507 to put the cat amongst the pidgeons a bit. (And to give an excuse to visit Ygraine, since a couple of characters have a directed trait for her.) Assuming he stays about till early Boy King, what would be the best place to remove Eliwlod, I wonder? I'm considering having him at the tournament and having the wind taken out of the cause then: the Cornish keep pressing for him but when Ygraine identifies Arthur it's simply the final nail in the coffin.

Alternatively, he could be present at and die in one of the battles of the 510s. I can't see Lot getting behind him, unless he's viewed as more easy to manipulate than Arthur. (Since Merlin isn't backing Arthur this would be understandable. Removing any magician from the discussion of Eliwlod's parentage possibly makes this easier.) It seems more likely he'd be sticking with the Cornish & Saxons who back him, though, perhaps he perishes at the later section of Boy King when a united Britain is fighting the Saxons?

Related to Madoc's son, what do the cryptic replies on GPC 118 refer to? Where is Eliwlod, who took him, what forest is it, and what does the 'spend ten years lost' mean?

In our game the PC knights are about to get an audience with the king of Sauvage, and they're questing there exactly to get news about Madoc's son. If I give them the reply about spending ten years lost, or the where lost men shall find, I am likely to receive a barrage of dice and pens at me, seeing as they've spent ages getting lost in Sauvage Forest (-15 to Hunting!) ;D

Related to Madoc's son, what do the cryptic replies on GPC 118 refer to? Where is Eliwlod, who took him, what forest is it, and what does the 'spend ten years lost' mean?

In our game the PC knights are about to get an audience with the king of Sauvage, and they're questing there exactly to get news about Madoc's son. If I give them the reply about spending ten years lost, or the where lost men shall find, I am likely to receive a barrage of dice and pens at me, seeing as they've spent ages getting lost in Sauvage Forest (-15 to Hunting!) ;D


Eliwlod will pop up later on in the GPC, reincarnated as a prophetic falcon. (as per Arthur and the Eagle: http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/celtic/ctexts/eagle.html) I'm at work so don't have my GPC to hand but Greg's earlier post says it's GPC p 224. When I first read that section I interpreted that comment by Sauvage as meaning that he is indeed alive but you are fated never to find him. Arthur spends "years lost" in a manner of speaking, being secretely fostered with Ector. and he will find Eliwlod only after Eliwlod's death. If you don't want to use that exact wording to frustrate them I'd make some other prophecy along those lines: "only the son of Uther can find the grandson of Uther" might be too overt, but that kind of idea.

You could of course let them find him, put him up as a ruler only to get him slain horribly later on. Giving the hope of a high king who is crushed might make the actual arrical of Arthur feel a bit different.

Ok, so is saying 'spend 10 years lost' just an extremely sneaky and roundabout way of saying, 'if you're Arthur, you will find him?' If so, it's far too cryptic for the players (or myself at that). I am pretty sure they know nothing of the Eliwlod story (I didn't), and their PCs certainly won't have that knowledge in adavnce, so it stands to reason they will come to another conclusion which is much more relevant to them, after all that wandering in the forest especially.

I was thinking that Greg had something specific in mind when he wrote those lines in the GPC, and I would dearly like to know what.

I read the related GPC adventure (or rather event) on page 224, and it didn't really give much more information. Any suggestion sor tips are greatly appreciated.

Ok, so is saying 'spend 10 years lost' just an extremely sneaky and roundabout way of saying, 'if you're Arthur, you will find him?' If so, it's far too cryptic for the players (or myself at that). I am pretty sure they know nothing of the Eliwlod story (I didn't), and their PCs certainly won't have that knowledge in adavnce, so it stands to reason they will come to another conclusion which is much more relevant to them, after all that wandering in the forest especially.

There's a long tradition in myth of prophecies that only make sense when you know the answer: at the time, they are either not understood or misunderstood. It seems quite in keeping for the players who have an answer they can't decipher until later on.

Sure, and I am not suggesting that the players should have easy time figuring the answers out, or even that they should be able to do so in the first place. But I need to know... ;)

I guess I am going to treat the riddles as a great big red herring, and it's up to the players what they make of it, if anything.

I was thinking that Greg had something specific in mind when he wrote those lines in the GPC, and I would dearly like to know what.

GQuail hit it right on