The last few weeks I have been running a KAP-game with a bunch of Pendragon noobs. I have kept it simple and without any dangerous challenges: the intro scenario and the Adventure of the White Horse (one of the best KAP adventures ever, if you ask me) has been played. The players, who are used to a very different play style (sand box, problem solving, detailed focus) have been slowly adjusting to game and and the setting and have been playing, well, prudent.

Yesterday thing got a bit heated, and I would like to know how you would handle the situation that I am now facing.

This is the situation. Salisbury, 528, a feast, Robert is there, "all" his knights and their ladies are there. One young knight, Sir Cynon, is asked to tell the story of the Adventure of the White Horse (since going adventuring is a behavior Robert wants to instill in his young knights). Sir Cynon does.

Then Sir Cadfael, another young PK, rises. During the adventure, he left the other PKs to chase after the Red Stag, and while unsuccessful in the end, he actually wounded the beast severely, ruined his horse and later ran into Lancelot; its a tale worth telling for a young knight wanting to get into the limelight. But a PC knight, Sir Mascen, who is and old knight set in his ways and don't care much for adventures and Lancelot keeps talking while Cadfael starts his speech. He doesn't shut up until his neighbors at the table tells him to. Cadfeal finishes his story.

The feast goes on, the dinner is finished, and the knights and ladies are mingling. Now the player of Sir Gilmere, another PK, has decided to set things on fire. Sir Gilmere approaches Sir Mascen, and says.: "You, Sir, are a knave!". Sir Mascen laughs, "Why, what do you want, puppy knight?". "I'm speaking about the way you behaved towards Sir Cadfael." Mascen laughs, again. "And? Isn't Sir Cadfael man enough to speak up for himself?". Sir Gilmere darkens: "I will always stand up my friends. And I spit on your honor, Sir".

Now, Sir Mascen is an old veteran, all in for might-is-right. He is insulted at Court, in front of a lot of people, by a 23 year old puppy-knight. He hasn't a very high Honor passion, but I decide to roll. Smack - inspired. I roll for Hospitality. Failure. Sir Mascen draws his sword.

All hell breaks loose. Sir Gilmere steps back, stunned, and his friend, another PK, Sir Grimaine interposes himself between Gilmere and Mascen. The inspired Sir Mascen now attacks Sir Grimaine instead, to get to his target. Grimaine has to draw his sword and try to defend himself. Of course Sir Mascen, with a Sword skill of 36 (21 + inspired + fighting against a re-arming opponent), rolls a crit. Wham - 31 in damage. Sir Grimaine falls to the floor, blood gashing, 2 HP remaining. By now several knights, including Sir Cynon and Sir Cadfael, intervenes. Sir Mascen is overpowered and convinced to lay down his sword. Robert arrives, fuming.

Pretty awesome, eh? In one go Sir Mascen almost killed a knight of his Lord, and broke his hospitality.

Since I had an adventure planned and wanted to get some time to think things through, I decided that Robert would postpone the judgment of the culprit until two months later. This also made sense, since at that time Sir Grimaines life hung on a thin thread. Had Mascen killed him or "just" wounded him severely? No judgment could be passed until that question was answered.

So my question is, Monday next, when we meet to play again, what shall I do?

The Court will be gathered to pass judgment on Sir Mascen, but what judgment will they reach? And what about Sir Gilmere? As I understand it, he has done nothing illegal, but his behavior has not been very subtle, and Sir Mascen was sorely provoked.

Grateful for your thoughts and ideas.

Knights fighting when they have some drink taken is expected but it should be punches or preferably wrestling.

The Old knight should have demanded satisfaction and made the young guy prove it on his body at a later time when neither was bound by hospitality.

That he critically injured a third party makes his crime even worse.

How important are these guys and their clans in the County? Who does the lord piss off when he comes down on one side or the other?

If there is no over-riding political concerns I would have the Lord

- censure the old knight, perhaps strip him of offices and priveleges. Force him to pay a fine to the court and compensation the wounded party.

- praise the wounded knight for seeking to keep the peace of his hall. Give him any offices taken from the old guy.

- admonish the agent provocateur for letting another step in front of him. He should fight his own battles or hold his tongue in future.

Hi guys,

I think the old fella is well within his rights to school these young puppies. He's already taught one a lesson. Bring on the next. >:(

Then he's stopped. Restrained by colleagues. He realises what he's done. :-[ :o

In my opinion (almost?) killing another knight is beside the point. On reading it, rather than seeing a crime of assault or murder I'm seeing one knight against two, maybe three if you take Sir Grimaine's actions as backing up his mates rather than "peacemaking". Fighting with other knights is what knights do. One of them "spat on his honour"!

His crime is breaking his lord's peace. I can't see a Lord (or the knight) waiting two months for a judgement. He broke his lord's peace! Especially before this "modern chivalry nonsense" came along Hospitality was very serious business. His crime is against his Lord! (On a game level, I would deduct 3 points off his Hospitality score and one off his Loyalty Lord immediately). He will be brought before the Lord and suffer his judgement.

The GM will decide what that judgement is. It is, in my opinion, important to remember that this is the Lord's judgement. How old is Lord Robert? How well does he know the PK's or the old knight? Is Sir Macsen a household knight? A vassal? A Banneret? How many knights does Sir Macsen bring to the muster? Versus how many for the PK's? Even if none of the knights involved have knight followers, If they are vassals then between them (based on 75 knights for Salisbury and half of them household) they constitute 10% of Roberts vassals and 5% of his total army. He needs to sort it out quickly and decisively

If Sir Macsen is a vassal knight and he has an heir of an age to take over the land, I might send Sir Macsen into exile, away on a quest for a year and a day. Is there something he could be sent to retrieve to aid the county in order to show him the value of adventures? (He may lose another point of Loyalty Lord at this stage)

Sir Macsen will be bounden to keep the peace and escorted from the county. (Maybe he loses another point of Loyalty).

At each stage roll Sir Macsen's loyalty to see whether he continues to follow his lord's judgement. If at any stage he fails. He may gather his kin and enter open rebellion, if that is feasible. If his lands are on a border he may switch allegiance to a neighbouring Earl. Possibly he might strike directly at the PK's or at least at Sir Gilmere and then if successful render himself up to Lord Robert for judgement. Certainly he cannot let Sir Gilmere's offense against his honour go unpunished.

If things don't go well for Sir Macsen, you could even wait a few years and then have Sir Macsen's kin ambush and attempt to kill all the PKs whenever it's appropriate to the campaign. ;) It's almost like Malory! 8)

Just another view

GR

Really depends how you'd like to play it out... GR in above points out some considerations. I agree that Robert should have resolved this quick, as in right there and then, as soon as he has the facts of the matter.

Like GR, I see the crime of breaking his Lord's Peace, rather than assault/murder. Sir Macsen was publically insulted to his face. Now, the proper answer would have been to challenge the pup to prove it in a duel, taking it outside of the hall. I wouldn't have made the guy draw there and then unless he critted his Proud or something. Finally, I would have given other knights a chance to begin drawing their swords as soon as Sir Macsen does so (maybe with an Awareness roll to see the tell-tale twitch in the older knight's eye, getting that moment's warning in time?), avoiding the reflexive modifier for rearming. And definitely, if I were playing the intervening knight, I would be fighting Defensively!

However, with the situation being what it is... Who are these people? How much Glory they have? Did Sir Macsen fight for Robert during Anarchy? Has he been in his Lord's service for 20+ years? What is his status?

Sir Gilmere was picking a fight that was not his, offering mortal insult to a proven, older knight. Sir Gilmere is going to get slapped down. If Sir Cadfael had a problem with the older knight continuing to talk during the presentation, it was Sir Cadfael's fight to pick, not Sir Gilmere's, like Sir Macsen correctly pointed out. Certainly it should not have been a reflection on Sir Macsen's honor, perhaps simple poor manners.

So, were I playing Robert, I would be very much inclined to punish Sir Gilmere even more than Sir Macsen. Not only did he insult his 'betters', he was cowardly enough to let others do the fighting for him, when the push came to shove. Sir Grimaine, assuming he did try to make the peace rather than simply jump into the brawl, would get praise for trying to keep the peace. Sir Macsen would need to get a slap on the wrist at least for breaking the peace.

So, taking all that into consideration, this is probably what I would do as Robert:

1) Sir Macsen and Sir Gilmere will get to duel. Right now, outside the hall, to settle their score. This might render some of the latter points invalid, if one kills the other. If Sir Gilmere tries to avoid the duel, he'd definitely suffer a hit on his Honor and get a Cowardly check (inclined to do that anyway, based on his actions during the fighting in the feast).

2) Sir Macsen gets sent into exile for a year and a day (love that suggestion from GR), with orders from Robert to perform some great adventure and to report back to Robert on that after the exile is done. I'd probably couch that more in terms of a quest than an exile, although of course it depends how remorseful Sir Macsen is about breaking Robert's Peace. Assuming that the old knight recognizes his fault, Robert might even give off-handed praise to Sir Macsen's previous record of service: "...And do great deeds during your year of exile, reminding those who may have forgotten the great valor you have already shown for your Lord in previous years. I never have."

3) Sir Gilmere, if still alive, gets sent into exile as well. Depending on Sir Gilmere's status, this might be semi-permanent (as in dismissal from household knight service), or it might be for a period as well. Or it might be limited to 'do not return until your deeds have shown that you are a man of valor and honor' (i.e. until you have gained 1000+ Glory by adventuring or some such).

4) I'd be tempted to assign Sir Grimaine to oversee Sir Macsen's estate (if any), during the latter's exile. This would give a chance for more Trait checks as in Forgiving etc. Also, I might have Robert 'reward' Sir Grimaine with any excess income from the estate, i.e. thanks to a good harvest, as compensation. Or find some other ways to show the favor of the Earl (i.e. more Glory from Court, asked to sit at the High Table, asked for opinion more often, etc...).

Those are some pretty harsh suggestions for dealing with people who have only been playing the game for a couple weeks! I'd not be likely to levy many of those penalties on people who have been playing for years!

Yes, Gilmere's comment was a little over the top. Do we expect a new player to know that?

Was he being cowardly? Or just roleplaying someone shocked at an attempted murder over words? (Maybe he expected to be challenged, but immediately attacked in his lords own hall?)

Some of the repercussions and controversy y'all suggest could be fun long term, I agree, but I'm not sure I'd make new players feel punished for actions that likely seemed entirely reasonable responses at the time, and good roleplaying at that.

Those are some pretty harsh suggestions for dealing with people who have only been playing the game for a couple weeks! I'd not be likely to levy many of those penalties on people who have been playing for years!

Yes, Gilmere's comment was a little over the top. Do we expect a new player to know that?

Maybe not. But insulting a knight's honour is Serious Business and how are new players ever going to understand this if the consequences are soft-pedalled?

A duel between Gilmere and Macsen is entirely appropriate - fighting words were uttered and they need to be backed up by deeds (or Gilmere needs to back down with an abject apology, cue Cowardly check). Duels are fun, so lets roll some dice! I'd probably set things up so that the duel will (probably) be non-fatal for Gilmere - either set the terms of the duel explicitly to be not to the death or frame Macsen as having cooled down a bit (no more passion) and set on humiliating Gilmere rather than killing him, plus no Cowardly check if he yields after getting knocked down and/or hurt.

Some kind of formal sanction on Macsen for breaking Hospitality is also needed, drawing steel in his Liege Lord's house is a major insult to Robert and compensation to Grimaine (or his family) will be needed to avert a feud. Macsen is an NPC, so sending him out of the county for a while isn't a problem for game logistics and sets him up for a return and potential 'recurring antagonist' shenanigans.

Gilmere is guilty of stupidity rather a sanctionable crime so I would restrict any formal punishment once the duel is done to a public tongue-lashing from Robert. OoC however I would make it clear to the player that Gilmere is on Robert's shit list now and he is going to have to do something impressive to wipe out the black mark. IMG I would regularly remind people of Gilmere's status as class dunce - indeed I would probably make this a character hook.

Grimaine needs to survive his major wound I think - I suggest that if he looks like death-spiralling under the Chirurgeons tender care then offer him a choice like Greg describes in this post (http://nocturnal-media.com/forum/index.php?topic=1786.msg14312#msg14312)


Some of the repercussions and controversy y'all suggest could be fun long term, I agree, but I'm not sure I'd make new players feel punished for actions that likely seemed entirely reasonable responses at the time, and good roleplaying at that.

I agree that this is a danger, so you have to be careful to ensure that everyone understands that it is the character being punished rather than the player. This is actually quite easy since players value 'adventures' and 'adventures' = someone doing something uncomfortable and/or dangerous and/or unpleasant. Thus the character is punished and the consequence is that the player gets to have adventures.

For example, you open the next session with a brief description of how Gilmere has been assigned to all the shit details and scutwork since that affair with Sir Macsen at the feast; which is why he and a couple of friends are out on Salisbury Plain in the middle of a thunderstorm trying to track down some sheep thieves when they encounter %ADVENTURE_HOOK and away you go...

Regards
Luke

First, thank you all for your thought. A lot. Great stuff.

Secondly, some clarifications.

Sir Grimaine did fight defensively
Sir Grimaine did survive
Sir Gilmere was not acting cowardly, he/his player was taken aback by Sir Mascens savagery
Sir Cadfeal did not set this up; Sir Gilmere acted on his own accord; hence Sir Cadfael have not won much credit in this - since he didn't shut up Sir Mascen himself nor demanded an apology of him later - but neither has he done something wrong.
Yes, it was harsh to roll Sir Mascens honor. But the provocation and the situation was extreme, in my mind, and I wanted to show my players that this is a game of passions. And if you mess with peoples passions ...
The situation was like this. It was late at night. Most knights were drunk. One knight was dying. And on the morn thereafter Earl Robert had to go to Camelot. These are the in-game reasons that the judgment was postponed. Another reason is that I 1) didn't know what to do and 2) did want to get the planned Adventure going


Importance at court
Well, this is a beer-and-pretzel mini-campaign; I haven't done much preparation. So we don't know much about Sir Mascen. He is old, he fought with Robert during the Anarchy and Saxon wars, he has high glory, but no formal position as senechal or marshal. He is i bit out on touch with the modern times. He is important at Court, and listened to, but he is not critical.

The PKs are all young, vassal knights, all lost their fathers to the Saxons.

Censure the old knight
Yes, it has to be done. He is pertinent and will admit his fault. I will not decide the judgment now, because I want my PKs to have their say at Court (and roll their skills). I like all of the suggestions - fine - strip of privileges - exile. We'll see. It will be decided in game.

Oh, and if he survives this, he will be cursed. He just lost at least 3 points of Hospitality. The goods will not look the other way.

Praise Sir Grimaine
Sir Grimaine got out of this with his standing increased, as the only PK to do so. He did the right thing and he acted cool and quick. If the judgment versus Sir Mascen is a fine, Sir Grimaine will get a share. If Sir Mascen looses a privilege - I'm thinking he usually lead an eschille in battle - it will go to Grimaine. And the estate idea --- I'm not sure, I'll think about it.

Censure Sir Gilmere
Sir Gilmere has already acknowledged that what he did was wrong. Since its a novice player and the character is a young knight, I don't want to be to hard on him. So, Earl Robert will tell him of his displeasure, and he will be given the most demeaning tasks a knight can be given until he has proven himself. Really proven himself. Being a pariah for a couple of years will ad some drama, and this could definitely lead to an adventure or two.

Duel
I'll give it some though. Sir Mascen ought to demand a duel, I feel. He won't use his Honor (unless provoked again) since it's rather low (12 before his incident). Sir Gilmere has 6d6 in damage versus his 4d6 (and tho old knights much higher skill) so it would be an even fight. The risks of Sir Gilmere being killed in not that large if he has the sense to yield if wounded. (An average cirt from Mascen would deal 28 points of damage; which will be 16 or 10 points of damage depending on if Gilmere gets his shield or not).

And yes, if both antagonists survive, there will be ... blood. There will be a feud. I might have to decide how many sons Mascen have, and how many brothers Sir Gilmere have ...

Not much to add except that I would have had sir Mascen roll for his pride instead of honor. Yes his honor was questioned, but it would have been his pride that would make him draw his sword. Breaking hospitality is also an dishonorable act. So if he critted his honor he would have stood up and demanded that the young pup would show him he is the better. Then go outside and give him hell.

Thats why you dont take swords into dining table. ::)

Okay, so the other day I ran that Court session.

Sir Mascen - who was truly regretful - got fined the weregild of Sir Grimaine (£18) and the fine was split between Sir Grimaine and Earl Robert. Mascen also lost his old right to lead one of the the Earls eshilles.

Sir Grimaine got half the fine and the right to lead Sir Mascen's old eshilles.

Sir Gilmere was tongue lashed in open court and told that until he had done some very impressive act of knighthood he would sit lowest at the table, always ride in the rear of the army, and generally be considered the lowest of the Earls knights.

After court, Sir Mascen challenged Sir Gilmere on a duel to the death, after which Sir Cadfael - having been somewhat chastised for not shut up Sir Mascen himself - challenged Sir Mascen on a duel to death ...

And what a duel it became. It must have run for 25 rounds. Sir Gilmere started well, giving Sir Mascen (Old Knight stats, but +2 SIZ, -2 STR and Sword @21) a nice 9 HP wound. Then it turned, and Sir Mascen started to chip away the PKs HPs. After they both got -5 on their skills due to fatigue, Sir Gilmere was in dire straits; with a modified Sword skill of @11 and a Reinforced chain (no Chiv) he was wounded and wounded and wounded and wounded again. In the end, with seven wounds, he had 8 HP remaining. That was also his Unconscious level. One average hit from Mascen (14 from 4d6) would down him, and then it would all be over. At that moment, Sir Gilmeres player rolled a crit. Then he rolled 54 damage (with 12d6) .. Chop goes Sir Mascen, who ends up with -22 HP. It's all over. One of the top five best KAP duels I've seen in all my days ...

Again, thanks for the help!

Out of curiosity, where can you get the Adventure of the White Horse Vale? I ran that 20+ years ago, but cannot find it in the new edition. I would love to rerun it.

KAP 3rd or 4th ed rules!