Hi all,

I happen to have one female player, who is currently playing a lady character, not a female knight. I don't think she is THAT interested in playing the Courtly Romance stuff of dangling smitten knights, as she is ICly quite happily married. So what other RP opportunities is there? Preferably ones that would allow the other (male knight) player characters to do something, too.

In short, I am quite interested in how you have solved this 'problem' in your games, if you have a female non-knight player characters? Both general ideas (although I do have some of those) and even more detailed suggestions (such as actual adventures/ideas you ran for a lady character in your game).

Some of the stuff I have already thought about:

1. She is a beauty: This might cause (unwanted) admirers, which is always a nice complication, but tends to have her as a more passive 'prize to be won/kidnapped' role, which is not so nice. (She has been kidnapped twice so far, by the same villain, actually, a recurring Big Bad of the PKs.)

2. She is an excellent healer: Plotlines might have a strange disease break out, or a grievous wound or a difficult childbirth, and she is urgently needed to help. There might be other complications, which might need help of the PK knights to solve (violently, their forte).

3. It is easier to confide to a woman: Definitely goes for female NPCs, who would be unlikely to talk so freely to a male knight. This might give her a line of intelligence / rumor-mongering that the male PK intriguer might lack? Also, smitten would-be-paramours might be less guarded with their words and let something important slip.

4. She is (suspected) of half-faerie blood: There might be trouble with local Faerie, and she is the only one they agree to negotiate with? Downside being that this can easily devolve into a mere 'interpreter' role, as the highest Status & Glory RTK PK calls the shots in the 'real world'.

5. Social: A churlish knight might close his doors before knights, but he would have to be a real churlish man indeed to leave an APP 21 lady shivering in the rain. Might play up more the chivalric angle and give her a bigger role in facilitating things via negotiation etc. Such as a peacekeeper between otherwise hostile factions, where a male knight might draw more ire from both hostile parties. Or as a sympathetic ear for problems that someone else might have (ties to point 3).

6. Problem-solving: She has a brain, so riddles and intrigue related stuff might give her more opportunities to contribute, while war strategy and tactics leaves her more outside.

She is already very much involved in the stewardship of her husband's manor, but unfortunately, tends to be more in a wallflower role during the years while the knights are busy slaying monsters or leading armies. Hence why I am trying to figure out something for her to do, too.

Best wishes,
Morien

Ah this is truly a problem. But if the male PK are up to it you could make it more a political game. While the male characters are more of a hack your way to success a lady has to do it with her guile and wit.

Some possible problems:
- A neighboring knight is trying to get control of her manor, and escalation of the situation (into bloody violence) is not an option. She must try and appease the neighbor and the lord. You can expand on this by letting it evolve into a real vendetta.
- (one I put in front of my PK, but could be solved by a Lady) In a city/town a church community has split into two factions due to the coming of Germanus (so they split into a British and Roman faction). Unfortunately the community had possession of a relic (a shard of the Cross), and now they are fighting over it (raids and such). Try and find a way to appease both factions. IMG the community was in Bath so the Pagan king of Somerset wasn't at all happy about it, but did not want to interfere. The custom was that the Relic could only be given freely to someone in order for it to be a legal possession. In my case the Relic was stolen and given to the PK. the PK decided that both factions would send 5 knights to become a religious order. they would train at a monastery for a year, and after that they could choose their own leader.
- Courtly romance does not mean it involves the Lady herself. Maybe another lady is escorted to London and during the trip she is 'kidnapped' by her lover. So when they rescue the wayward lady from her lover she may not want to go. It is then that maybe the lady needs to convince her, while the other knights keep the lover at bay, or maybe fathers or brothers. Or you could go with a sort of Cyrano de Bergerac idea where another lady wants to marry a knight, but she needs to ghet his attention. the Lady could assist in that.
- Of course you can always fall back on a legal problem, but that may get boring. But when investigating the disappearance of cows or sheep the local farmers are more willing to speak with a lady than with a knight.

Thanks Cornelius for the reply. :)

While certainly legal problems might arise at some point, she has pretty big guns on her side, including two player RTKs, one of whom is the banneret regent whilst the young banneret (her husband's liege lord and her nephew, in fact) grows up. And who counts four dead RTKs in her family tree (father, mother, a sister and a brother, all now dead). So probably less problems there, legally, although if her husband snuffs it and the Earl (Agravaine, in fact, due to the twists and turns in our campaign) gets to decide which of his loyal knights he rewards with the hand of this beautiful and glorious, if headstrong, lady... I foresee a lot of RP potential in that situation, but I have promised the player that I won't kill the NPC husband off unless the dice do. Which they have come close to a couple of times. :P

Good idea about the 'kidnapped' lady. Our first adventure was actually of that type! The lover 'kidnapping' the lady, and then the two convinced the chasing PKs that this was a consensual kidnapping to escape from her father, who didn't approve and was carting her off to a convent. Of course, the current Big Bad is their son, which shows that no good deed goes unpunished... :) (Actually a bit more involved story, and the players have only themselves to blame, says I!)

While I like the Cyrano de Bergerac angle as well, that leaves very little for the other players to do meanwhile. Still, it would give her something to do along the lines of my point 3 in my previous post, and I doubt the others would mind her having some solo RP meanwhile. And of course, she might come up with a plan to use the PKs, too.

Combining #3 and #6, whenever the PKs are facing a fight her job could be to stack the odds in their favor beforehand.

For example, she could constantly assemble and assess bits of intel from travelling merchants and such, so the PKs and their lords can be forewarned and their army already holding the high ground when the invaders come. Is the enemy commander Famously Reckless? That suggests all sorts of wonderful things for the battle plan, which means she's at the table when the battle plan is formed. And three sessions ago, didn’t she hear that the caitiff baron leading the invasion has a string of ladies he’s dishonored? Perhaps now is the time for her to send some messengers to those the ladies’ families and assemble some troops the baron is not expecting …

Some slight variant on the Cyrano angle: If one of the other PK is still single, you could have a foreign lady to ask how to approach the PK.

IMHO it's very problematic trying to play ladies with normal PKs on a regular basis - their worlds are just so different, especially if you do not want to go on the romantic side. Nevertheless, if you consider (and enjoy) courtly talk as "scenarios", each GPC year has several lady gossip entries; you can try to combine those to form a full game session. We have quite a social playing style and the players tend to ramble for hours once I give them a decent topic, so this works out nicely for us. The most important tip I can give is to tie the intrigue and gossip to figures that are previously known to PCs and/or are well established in your campaign: intertwining stories has been a standard storytelling trick since the middle-ages :)

A short story from our campaign that will test your players' morals (warning: possibly without any "right" answer):

It has come into someone's attention (through personal confession/handmaid gossip/eyewitness in the garden) that the countess is having an illicit relationship with the marshal of the realm. Encourage him/her to consult other PCs. What are you going to do about it, if anything? Even if you are in the romance period, this can be considered a very bad thing for the realm, more so if christian virtues are prevalent. Things to make the matter even more interesting: the countess have not yet given a child to the earl; the marshal/the countess has bad blood with the earl/the PCs; revealing the relationship may garner personal gain (the title of marshal/his lands); other unwanted party has heard the rumor and he must be convinced/forced to be silent; the earl is a cruel man and will punish the adulterers horribly. The rumor can of course be verified by sneaking in the garden where the lovers meet. Insert guards, unknown fellow sneakers and other shenanigans to make it memorable. Or maybe the countess/marshal is meeting someone else in there?

P.S. Arranging marriages for the family can be an "adventure" too. While the master of the house may have the final word, the lady can spot, test and present possible suitors for her daughters and sons. Add your favorite candidates (whose qualities may require intrigue/other efforts to discover): rich but obnoxious, charming but loose zipper, young but dumb, impeccable but Saxon etc. Surely she will ask the PKs for general advice/insider info about some candidate? They may even have to discourage/drive off some unwanted suitors/secret admirers.

Morien there are many ways for her to adventure that are true to a lady like medieval woman.

1. She's breeding selling horses and delivering them either to a courser (I know it's confusing a courser was both a horse trader and a type of horse) or delivering them to some castle. is she cheated and needs to find a way to either get paid or steal back the horse(s) she could face all sorts of dangers both going to and coming back from a trade. even if she is paid that does not mean there are not men hired to rob her and give the buyer back the money. if the buyer knows she's coming why does he need her, just pay to have her robbed.

2. Same as above but she's breeding and racing "running horses" (race horses to us). She could even be riding them. The races might be at Smithfield just north of London where there was a major horse market and races were often held. king John lackland loved to race his horses there. She would have to protect her horse to keep it safe from those who would want to cheat and drug it or injure it if the horse was known to be better than hers.

3. She's a huntress. women did not take part in the type of hunting Greg describes in the hunting skill, but they did take part in many other forms of hunting. Both women and men hunted small game ( hares, conies, rabbits, partridges and other land fowl on horseback with bows and more rarely for deer. They also sometimes were accomplished huntresses with bows on foot with tracking skills and still hunting skills or hunted on foot with a lyme hound to "track" for them. She might be able to scout ahead for her husband and comrades. If she's not overly just she might also be a sneaky assassin for them of enemy horses and hounds or at least drive them off, though these last two are borderline tomboy activities.

4. Nobles and their women were avid collectors of plants, rare objects, cameos and intagios, rare animals curios, relics and books. You could build scenarios around exchanging gifts of these items with other noble collectors. She might be doing this for a profit, "gift exchanges" were often masked commercial trades with both parties seeking profits or she could occasionally have an item that a collector might be willing to trade something of real value for..say one of those d6 healing potions.

5. Women were the judges at tournaments deciding who won them. If her husband is a tourneyer she could follow him to various tourneys to help sway other ladies to him or just go to them for the banquets and dances that happened at night after the "fighting" This would also give her the opportunity to socialize with other nobles and to recognize and judge whom the better tourneyers were and keep her husband away from them so he dis not have to ransom himself, his horse, arms and armor by fighting a knight better than himself. this activity could also be used as scouting to see how good the villain is and what weaknesses he has, Very useful information for when her husband and comrades fight him for real.

6. Women also need to market livestock and go on shopping trips, more perfect opportunities to build scenarios around.

7. Moorish and Saracen slaves were actively kidnapping women to be hareem girls /slave girls all during the middle ages, of course they're really later than the time Greg has set PD/KAP in. having her let herself be captured to find other victims and rescue them with or without the help of her husband. there are other Moors, Blackamoors and Saracens in PD so having the slave raiders too is not completely out of the question.

Hi Morien,

I think you're looking for adventure with a less traditional military approach. Sorry if I've got the wrong end of the stick on that.


I might suggest picking up a cheap murder mystery novel or two. I would go with a traditional Agatha Christie, the traditional country house with aristocratic guests maps quite well to a castle or manor court. Or perhaps a Brother Cadfael mystery by Eliis Peters, or two. The Brother Cadfael mysteries in particular will contain medieval trappings and no risk of any anachronous plot devices. A murder mystery will give plenty of opportunties for social adventuring with skills that your female character will be at least as good at as the men. Several of the Brother Cadfael mysteries also include extended journeying which might be fun. In addition it's always possible to have a chase/fight scene at the end rather than the more peaceful "it's a fair cop gov!" that is traditional if you have PKs that won't turn up if there isn't a fight!
There are one or two very good Brother Cadfael mysteries (my favourite is probably "The Virgin in the Ice") and a lot more medieval murder mysteries by other folk as well. Slightly further afield there are Roman Private Eye stories, set throughout the Empire with slightly more action which might also be a good source. "The Iron Hand of Mars" was a good one, though I can't remember the author off hand.
Alternatively a spy mission might fit the bill. A lady might be useful within such a setting and the non-standard setting may render non-standard behaviour more acceptable. Where every character is "fighting" by unknightly means, then it is perfectly possible for a lady to "fight" as well

Another possible is source is children's historical adventure. They seem to have less violent/military content whilst retaining the adventure component. The battlefield activities eschewed my Ladies are de-emphasised in favour of more varied fare. "The Eagle of the Ninth" by Rosemary Sutcliffe is probably the Ur example.
Women's historical fiction may also be an inspiration. This may include Romance but also often seems to include a woman building up a business in adverse circumstances. The wool trade in medieval England is often a feature. A strategic emphasis on planning trading voyages, building ships, hiring captains etc is possible. Also a detailed focus on land and agriculture could go this way. With the use of the Book of the Manor to manage a detailed focus on the land. The two medieval books by Ken Follett cover this area well. This sort of material may however be better for campaign play than scenario play.
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The first thing I would do though, is to speak to the Lady's player and see what she wants to do in an adventure. Although I'm deeply unconvinced by most of the evidence put forward for the idea of ladies fighting as knights in the medieval period, there are plenty of documented examples of ladies "leading armies", so there's no reason why that shouldn't be something she can do in the right circumstances, as a Lady, if that's what the player wants. Sieges are a prime example, depending on rank a Lady Castellan might be the correct choice to conduct the defence of a castle, manor or walled town (like Nicola de la Hay at Lincoln).
Although it would not be likely that a lady would fight as a knight in general and you've said the player doesn't want to play a "lady knight", that needn't necessarily prevent her from "slaying monsters" when need be. Several of the Dragon mini-adventures (in Perilous Forest I think) require research and investigation to find the way to defeat the monster. In addition once the fight is on, it's all hands to the pump and manning or directing the use of the Dragon killing machine for example might be a way to directly involve a lady in the action sequences. She might also not be adverse to picking up a sword in dire circumstances, even though she may prefer to remain a Lady usually.
Other non-direct violent methods are also possible ways to physically engage an enemy when you don't want to de-protagonise a Lady just for being female. Captaining a ship might be an activity suitable for a woman (say if e.g. she owned it) and the Captain she had employed died early in the fight when the vessel was attacked by Pirates.

hope some of these ideas help a little,

GR [/list]

Hi Morien,

Although I'm deeply unconvinced by most of the evidence put forward for the idea of ladies fighting as knights in the medieval period, there are plenty of documented examples of ladies "leading armies", so there's no reason why that shouldn't be something she can do in the right circumstances, as a Lady, if that's what the player wants. Sieges are a prime example, depending on rank a Lady Castellan might be the correct choice to conduct the defence of a castle, manor or walled town (like Nicola de la Hay at Lincoln).
Although it would not be likely that a lady would fight as a knight in general and you've said the player doesn't want to play a "lady knight", that needn't necessarily prevent her from "slaying monsters" when need be. Several of the Dragon mini-adventures (in Perilous Forest I think) require research and investigation to find the way to defeat the monster. In addition once the fight is on, it's all hands to the pump and manning or directing the use of the Dragon killing machine for example might be a way to directly involve a lady in the action sequences. She might also not be adverse to picking up a sword in dire circumstances, even though she may prefer to remain a Lady usually.
Other non-direct violent methods are also possible ways to physically engage an enemy when you don't want to de-protagonise a Lady just for being female. Captaining a ship might be an activity suitable for a woman (say if e.g. she owned it) and the Captain she had employed died early in the fight when the vessel was attacked by Pirates.

hope some of these ideas help a little,

GR


Though I agree with you that it's highly unlikely that any women were warrior knights in the feudal period (10th century+ amongst the Carolingians, and 1066+ in England) The "real" Arthur did not live in the feudal age. There's plenty of evidence for Celtic female warriors and occasional Teutonic shield maidens, even in the Feudal age it was mainly Celtic women who stepped up and led the defense of their castles. Feudalism shut down social mobility in numerous ways, before it under the system of vassalage which can be traced back to the 1st century and likely a lot earlier. A vassal was anyone who had paid homage to a lord and become his man. Vassals usually were warriors supported by their lord and a member of his household, they could be either slaves or freemen and either might be promoted to counts either in the household or territorial ones normally centered around some town. A female warrior might also be allowed to commend herself to a lord-it was entirely up to him. The "real" Arthur lived during the age of vassalage not feudalism so Belle chivalieres should be possible, though they would have been tomboys even then and weird for a woman. Arhtur in the feudal age was a fantasy figure and basically the knights imitating the round table knights in the feudal age were the equivalent of modern live action role players and usually the morals of these romantic round table knights did not match the real morals of chivalry or real knights. reading le mort de Arthur in middle English, it feels a lot more like a Cervantes parody than it el Cid, only being a parody of Chretien de Troyes and his round table knights. the villains in it act more like real knights then do the round table knights.

Snaggle,
fascinating stuff about Morte. I don't read Middle English so I'll have to defer to your expertise there. I could see a certain tongue in cheek element to Morte but I always put it down to the ironic self awareness of a flawed knight like Malory writing about such high paragons of virtue. Certainly he was aware that the knights he knew weren't so chivalrous. Whether this means it should be considered a parody like Don Quixote, I don't know.

I didn't want to lead anyone off on a tangent. My point with regard to the female knights was in response to Morien's closing points. With a Lady PC, he has found it difficult to involve her "during the years while the knights are busy slaying monsters or leading armies." In addition he pointed out that the player didn't want to be a female knight. It's always a struggle to find something for a different character type to do if they don't want to engage with the usual activities but still need the opportunity to contribute equally, particularly at the climax of a story. I wanted to illustrate that without having to be a female knight, a Lady could still engage with "slaying monsters or leading armies."

Sorry if my lack of clarity led anyone down the wrong path.

GR

Gentleman ranker it helps to read middle English if you're at a basic level of ability in French and German, e.g. the middle English word for "I" is "Ich" (the same as the modern German word for "I"). It also helps if you're at a semi-basic level in Old English (as can read most stuff and understand it mostly) ;). Though, I know people whom read 17th-19th century modern English and understand it about as well as a foreign language. I'm also a short sleeper, sleeping around 5 hours a day and tried a liter of the Sodastream energy drink and have no chance of sleeping at all as a result. It's much too effective ;)

Ladies can play part in initiating and moving adventures on.

The tale of Lynette and Gareth is already in the materials. And it has been riffed on in the more modern literature as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King%27s_Damosel

This plays on the role of a lady playing the part of messenger or ambassador. She can get to places that a group of knights might not. And it's another way to allow the lady to travel with PKs and have many of the foreign court and road encounters at the very least.

If a particular session is going to be combat heavy perhaps her escort includes a female warrior of some sort, or she uses a NPC knight that is normally just part of the background household.

Thanks to everyone offering their suggestions. It is helpful, if for nothing else than to get me to look at my own preconceived ideas and seeing if they are reflected by the common consensus. :)

I have talked with the player about it, and generally, she is fine with things. It is simply when the session is heavily military/combat that she tends to get more bored. I am not sure if she would be that into with playing a secondary warrior character. She has been throwing dice for her NPC knight husband from time to time, though, when he has been involved in things. Which of course is a good deal for me since it gives me one less NPC to worry about in a combat situation. But I think that is not a solution, though, as if she had wanted to play a female knight, she easily could have made such a character for herself.

We have talked about the 'quest guide' role, too. Perhaps I will need to add more adventures in Faerie, where her heritage helps her to leverage her parley influence over the glorious knights, who would dominate the discussion in the real world. And of course, I should introduce more NPC lady characters in various places where they stop, giving her another, more exclusive line of gossip and information that the male knights will have trouble tapping into.

I do have some scenarios in mind where she will have an important role for a change.

Hi Morien I too had some trouble at first in my game about incorporating ladies with out doing the romance side but I found a simple why to do it one thing is sinse she is married and not wanting to do romance does her husband play as a pk knight if so you could have them play as a married couple in game where he is her champion and is pledge to defend her honor and champion her in all tournaments I actually had a couple do this in my campaign and they had a lot of fun doing it. Another is doing some courtly intrigue stuff like a lady she knows from court who has recently married sends her a letter and in the letter tells a gruesome story about the knight being very abusive to her and asks or her help in trying to get away from them, this leads them to his castle where he says that she is simply sick and out of her mind and you cant see her right now but does grant hospitality to them just not inside the castle where she is being kept problem is how to get into the castle with out offending the lord and rescue her. Another problem to be solved is why is this knight was good become so evil what changed him? Another adventure could be where another knight has a problem he must win a tournament to wed a girl who's hand in marriage is the prize because she is his true love at the same time he tells the knights this the same lady tell's your lady pc the same thing and asks her to ask her knights to help her knight win the tournament so they can merry for love and not for anything else all they have to do is to clear the field so he can win so do they help and clear the field and let him win so they can merry or not? Also their is a website that has several adventures on it you might find useful
it can be found here http://www.drosi.de/artikel/pendragon_abenteuer.htm

also if you can find them these book might prove useful to you Blood & Lust (CHA2711) this has the compleate campagin of the Angle in it and has some wonderful adventures in it for knights and lady's My players enjoy them and also the GK2720, Tales of Chivalry and Romance (1999) also has some awsome adventures these are the ones i metioned earlier in this post.

Since this is my first post, I should probably start by saying greetings to all! :)

Being a female player myself, and currently playing 4rth ed pendragon, thought I'd give my perspective on this question.
First of all, it can definitely work! Provided, of course, the campaign has a strong political flavor, with ample opportunities for heavy rp, plotting, scheming etc, and is not only based on hack n slash combats!
Yes, there have been times that I might have been a little bored, and maybe once or twice tempted to generate a squire or knight as an additional char, but most of the times I'm having enormous fun dealing with all the politics/gossip/court issues! Plus all the stewardship issues for the estate, keeping annual logs of income and expenses, planning feasts and tournaments (I am probably stepping on my NPC husband's shoes in a bit, but hey...)
However, I do agree that, compared to many other RPGs I've played with the same group, there have been sessions in Pendragon when my interaction with the other knights (and players!) was minimal and indirect. That is something that we expected when we discussed options at the start of the campaign, and as I said above, I have not regretted it so far that I went for a lady char rather than a knight...
Just a couple of extra comments:
1. The fact that she is "happily married" does not exclude scenarios and plotlines around romance and amor. My char is happily married too, but I have found that the whole amor/courtly love business is quite a powerful tool for ladies in manipulation and intrigue, even after marriage ;-)
2. I would try and avoid the "damsel in distress" scenarios if possible- don't think they would be particularly fun for a female player... or maybe that's just me!
3. Ideas like giving her an extraordinary ability/item, or even an unusual flaw/curse etc definitely help and can be used in several plots...

As a bottomline, I must say that although there are hundreds of ideas and plots for lady chars, most of them the lady will have to play as solo adventures, with knights only interfering temporarily and minimally with the lady herself. It is true that they are two different worlds entirely, the lady's and the knight's, and only extraordinary events might briefly force them to overlap :)

Enid on yur post well said glad to have you here!