We have a player knight who is 31 years of age, and wanted a wife. So we rolled on the random wife table, using the age modifiers. Greg mentions in another thread that a courtesy roll is required here, but how does it work - does it affect the modifier or the table roll itself?

The roll came up as 29 for a vassal knight, and we were stunned when we saw that this would give a dowry of £175 plus £2 in land. What's the catch, how is it possible to have so huge a dowry for a vassal knight's (albeit rich one) maiden daughter? The player himself felt this sum was highly out of proportion, especially as we had just finished our Manor income phase for that year, and they had income from nought to £7. The must be a good reason, seeing that it's not even the highest possible result in that table?

About the £2 land thingy, is that regular and permanent yearly income? Is it like a manor, or a portion of it? Does it involve any obligations etc?

We have a player knight who is 31 years of age, and wanted a wife. So we rolled on the random wife table, using the age modifiers. Greg mentions in another thread that a courtesy roll is required here, but how does it work - does it affect the modifier or the table roll itself?

KAPO page 93
"Modifiers are always added to or subtracted from the character's statistic values, not to the roll itself."


The roll came up as 29 for a vassal knight, and we were stunned when we saw that this would give a dowry of £175 plus £2 in land. What's the catch, how is it possible to have so huge a dowry for a vassal knight's (albeit rich one) maiden daughter?

It is possible because:
the father was rich
your player rolled a 29


About the £2 land thingy, is that regular and permanent yearly income? Is it like a manor, or a portion of it? Does it involve any obligations etc?

The precise source is left to the gamemaster
it is annual income

I am sorry Greg, but English is not my native tongue, and I am not really sure what you mean by your first two comments?

What I was trying to ask in my first question was how does the Courtesy affect the random wife table roll? From what I can tell, the only modifiers in the book are PK age, and a possible gift given to your liege? So player statistics don't really come into it? So what about the Courtesy roll, do you roll it first to see if you're even allowed to make the random wife roll at all, or does the Courtesy result affect in some those modifiers or the roll result? Or have I completely misunderstood the use of this table?

And about the extra large dowry, I do understand why we ended up with this result. What I don't understand is how can the bride's daddy afford such huge sum, especially given the context of the fiscal system in BoM? The table specifically mentions the dad is a vassal knight, not a lord? Of course, this is pretty much as good as it can get in that table. I am not at all knowledgeable about Medieval marriages etc. but wouldn't this kind of sum drive the dad into ruination? What would be the motivation to pay the high dowry, are they really, really desperate to marry her off....

Or is there the catch that this wife is extremely 'high-maintenance' and will expect to live at the level of a rich knight (lady), and therefore the PK will have his work cut out for him by simply trying to maintain this level (lots of manor enhancements, a large entourage, luxury items, fashionable clothes etc? We have this great difficulty of getting our heads round this idea. The other knights are especially appalled, as few of them have wifes rolled with the old version of tables in 3rd edition. I suspect one of them is already harbouring the idea of getting 'rid' of his old wife to get a chance to marry such a lucrative new one... fun times ahead, I expect. :P

this very rich vassal likely has one or two landed knights under him. he's likely has a lot of plunder from the enemy. paying this kind of price is not to far beyond the possible even with BOTM if this Vassal has collected ransoms over his tenure as a knight. capturing one knight may yield 28L a pop. 18 for the knight 10 if he sells the charger. a particularly successful military campaign can earn a lot of coin. bottom line anyone with ~ 3.5 sons who can give his daughter 2L in land is doing okay.

now what does you player do with that idk. part of that might go to the Earl for arranging such a great marriage. that kind of wealth is banneret level. so rich knight grade expected from now on. some household knights and footmen might be an expectation at the next muster. after all her daddy can afforded it, so his son in law should do the same. i gather the your pk doesn't have that kind of sustainable wealth...that's his issue. he married into upper tier, time to keep up with his "peers". if he's smart he may gift a big chunk to the earl.he may get a gift of a gift or grant of land back there's no hard fast conversion but 20x the value of the plot was good in my game. YMMV. i also had a pk "buy out" the service of another PK buy gifting the earl 3x the value of that knights land. he also gifted that total value in soldiers, feast, surfs and improvements to the pk to smooth that over

I am sorry Greg, but English is not my native tongue, and I am not really sure what you mean by your first two comments?

Thank you for asking again


What I was trying to ask in my first question was how does the Courtesy affect the random wife table roll?

Concerning the Courtesy roll, I was referring to KAP p 109, right column, 3rd paragraph:
"To find an ordinary wife within the character's class, roll his Courtesy once each winter. If successful, you may either roll on the Random Marriage Table below, or wait a year. If you choose to put it off, just note “met candidate for marriage, still waiting” (or something to that effect) in your character's history. You can wait for years if you want, if there is no pressure from your lord.
Each year you make a successful Courtesy Roll but choose to wait for marriage, add one to the d20 die roll on the Random Marriage Table when you do roll. A roll over 20 is considered a roll of 20. (If you fail your Courtesy roll, you do not add one to the Random Marriage Table for that year.)
When you decide to roll for marriage you get only one chance. If you get what seems to be a bad match, assume the marriage provides some political benefit for your lord instead (which may or may not impact your character directly.)"

This to get a 29 a character must have successfully done the above for at least nine years, and then have rolled a 20 on his wife roll.


And about the extra large dowry, I do understand why we ended up with this result.

The vassal was very, very rich. Sir Cripple has given some good reasons. Such a huge amount most likely indicates amazing success at war.
You yourself have also indicated good reasons: she is ugly and high maintenance.
Maybe she is also a shrew, hates sex, publicly scornful of her husband, sexually unfaithful, or has some similar problem.
Or all the above
or to go back to the original reason, your player was incredibly lucky


The other knights are especially appalled, as few of them have wifes rolled with the old version of tables in 3rd edition. I suspect one of them is already harbouring the idea of getting 'rid' of his old wife to get a chance to marry such a lucrative new one... fun times ahead, I expect. :P

Be sure to point out the requirement above about years of successful Courtesy rolls that are necessary.
And although kings seemed to find reasons that they could dismiss a wife legally, since they had high-level contacts and the money to pay them for a favorable decision, a divorce is more difficult for a knight. If there are suspicious circumstances concerning her death, that would at the least provide a negative modifier to his next opportunity to marry.

Thanks for the explanation and the ideas, Greg and SirCripple. I think I now understand how it works, and what we might change about this particular case.

The PK has indeed pursued for the 'right' marriage for some years, but not as many as his late starting age might indicate. So I think I will give the player choice, either we downgrade the roll a bit (ie. the modifier wasn't automatically as big as +10), or he will indeed get the full dowry AND has to deal with whatever obligations, characteristics, demands & quirks I will come up for the bride? Another Lady McBeth, perhaps? ;D

The roll came up as 29 for a vassal knight, and we were stunned when we saw that this would give a dowry of £175 plus £2 in land. What's the catch, how is it possible to have so huge a dowry for a vassal knight's (albeit rich one) maiden daughter? The player himself felt this sum was highly out of proportion, especially as we had just finished our Manor income phase for that year, and they had income from nought to £7. The must be a good reason, seeing that it's not even the highest possible result in that table?

About the £2 land thingy, is that regular and permanent yearly income? Is it like a manor, or a portion of it? Does it involve any obligations etc?


How is it possible? Using history here's how. King Henry III boasted that he could remember the names of all men holding the 250 baronies in England. At the time only 100 baronies were held by magnates (and few of them had the title of baron). Those 150 men holding baronies were common knights, squires and even sergeants, simple household knights or vassal knights could get the really big payday from their lords occasionally 8). Usually they did not get them as fiefs ( a benefice/holding both perpetual (for life) and hereditary). They usually got them as precarious benefices (something like a job that they could be laid off from, demoted or fired at the will of their boss) or as perpetual benefices (AKA a for life holding).

I am proposing other reasons why so much money is needed to marry the lady off.

She's Pagan. She's Christian. She's Saxon. She's Irish. She's known for her [negative trait]. She's known for her Hate: Arthur or Guenevere or Merlin or her Love: Lancelot or Galahad or Percival. She's ugly (as already stated). She's rumored to be barren. She's under a curse from a faerie or witch.

In my campaign a Roman knight from Gales, the eschille commander, is wooing a great beauty from Dieria (sp?).

Of note are the other PK's Hate: Saxons passions--all of which are in the middle 20s. Sir Primarus and Lady Raedburh are headed for some rough times.

The other aspect I'd be thinking about is how that money is going to be spent. It's a valid worry if you think a player will be trying to bankroll a medieval version of the industrial revolution with it, but if it's going to be spent on a year or three of fantastically raucous living for himself and his extended household (as the wife may expect, nay demand), expensive horses, jewellery and donations to the church it isn't so bad. It's just 179 glory waiting to happen.

The other aspect I'd be thinking about is how that money is going to be spent. It's a valid worry if you think a player will be trying to bankroll a medieval version of the industrial revolution with it, but if it's going to be spent on a year or three of fantastically raucous living for himself and his extended household (as the wife may expect, nay demand), expensive horses, jewellery and donations to the church it isn't so bad. It's just 179 glory waiting to happen.


Do what they did in the middle ages, turn almost all of it into vessels/plate and put it on display in their hall, say one point of glory per annum for each £1 on display there. Knight and other nobles normally turned their extra silver into vessels.
what were they: nefs (models in silver or silver gilt of ships);salt and pepper containers; standing cups ( like a chalice,sometimes with elaborate lids, they were called covered cups then); chargers ( a serving plate that people two dinners took food off of, note they used bread 'trenchers' as individual plates; spoons; forks (not used in England or France, but used in Italy and Byzantium); ewers and basins ( used in the hall and held by people for guests to wash hands); sauce bowls; sugar bowls; bikers (our drinking glasses /beakers); flagons (sort of like a spoutless teapot, but used for wine); nef like fish "bowls"; cups (like our tea cups). They also placed silver feet/bases on mazers ( the root of the maple tree carved into a drinking bowl); eggs ( Ostrich eggs turned into goblets, but claimed to be "griffins' eggs); nuts ( coconut shells turned into goblets); goblets ( usually smaller than standing cups, which were mainly used for display, while the goblet were used to drink out of); pitchers (used for wine). I know I've forgotten a few things :-[. They also had chapel vessels, to celebrate mass at home in, with chalices and the rest (the same vessels still used by the Catholic church). Naturally jewels/jewelry too. they often covered books with silver or gold faces too, studded with semi-precious and precious stones. The foot and mouths of drinking horns were also mounted with silver. Silver gilt is silver covered with gold. Parcel gilt is silver with the inside and usually brim covered with gold.

It was cheap to covert silver and gold into these items, costing about 1/3 the value of the silver for the best items and around 8% for the less elaborate ones. Their vessels could be melted down for cash any time they wanted, or melted down to have them remade in more fashionable styles. They in the early period often bought Byzantine vessels for the prestige value. Later England (really London) was a major center of luxury goldsmithing (14th century+) with their vessels exported to other countries.

Perennial glory from ornamental vessels would be insanely good. As a one off bonus though, it makes perfect sense.
Perhaps it could be used to gain small glory boosts here or there, an important speech is that much more glorious if it happens in a spectacular location.

I can imagine the look on my GM's face if I suggested that I wanted to get glory every year for turning money into pots.
Hehe, it's a good look, mostly full of true berserkers coming at my face.
Mostly because while I have a small income, a couple of the other players in the group... That would be a glory machine.

Characters already get glory for conspicuous consumption, this is just a variant of the rules adjusted to make them more medieval them. Besides displaying all that silver would bring one thieving relatives, guests and Saxons, not to mention the masked men of corrupted sheriffs...a player would soon be earning some glory in the Winter phase or getting a lot poorer and even dead.

Buying shiny pots and gilded jars is conspicuous consumption, owning all that stuff will attract thieves anyhow without the need to create a glory engine.

Of course you're right Gretik , one point of glory /£1 converted into vessels/plate is way too high. Really should work like this: cost of conversion: £1/£10=1 point of glory; £2/£10= 2 glory; £3/£10=3 glory, one time glory, but on a roll of 20 it's out of fashion and may be remade into fashionable vessels for new glory. Characters gain a point of glory for each £20 they have on display per annum, but automatically lose £1/£20 to theft each year. Characters may additionally gain one point of glory per £1 spent on hospitality, but their glory from spending on hospitality is limited to one glory/£10 of vessels on display.

The revision drains coffers in exchange for glory and keeps them from investing it on manorial improvements

Here is a quote from the upcoming Book of the Estate

Extra Money
Irregular income comes to all hard-fighting knights. Some possible things to do with it:
Spend it. Of course! See “Outrageous Consumption,” ask the Gamemaster for a price list, or submit a shopping list.
Build. Long-term improvements, such as fortifications, and Investments are usually a good practice.
Give it away. Tell the Gamemaster where you are giving it, and he’ll provide appropriate Generous and other checks, if deserved. Look through “Improvements,” below, for guidelines on what institutions grant what checks. For instance, a hospital grants a Merciful check, an Abbey grants a Spiritual check, and so on.
Display Treasure. Goods are displayed in the hall to show off wealth and power. This grants 1 Glory per £1 displayed, up to 100, per year. Open boxes show off coins and jewels; display cabinets reveal gold and silver dishware; wearing jewelry is public display; and in the Lady’s room bales of fine cloth, clothing, furs are stacked around in the open. It is convenient, brazen, simple, coarse, and rude—and the way it’s usually done. (If Treasure is used to pay something off, it is worth its face value; and is thus pretty handy too.)
Hide it. Concealing wealth gains no Glory.

One other thought: with 175£, one can probably entice one's liege into either "selling" the knight a manor, or granting him rights to build one in some out of the way spot within the liege's lands. Perhaps permission for more than one.

Never forget that a couple pounds of gold (at roughly 10£ per pound weight) can seriously alter even a count's disposition towards the character. At least in the short term.

Ok Here is a simple way of how I would handle this in my campaign the reason as too why such a high dowry is this he gets to marry have a wife have a title and have lands but has no say over how the money is spent after all this is considered to be a steward's job of industry and any knight got doing this kind of work can loose their knight hood remember in the KAP books although it is patriarchal society woman do have some right's and one of these right's is running the land for her father first at age 16 she must prove she is worthy to hold ontp such land through industry if she succeeds she is married if she should fails, well any thing can happen GM's choice I say. Then for her husband she runs the land, but first must to prove to her father that she is capable of running what will one day be her inheritances ie her dowry lands to her knight for one knights service which gets paid by her as a good lady's job should be to stay at home and run the house hold while your man is off fighting your foe's and hunting etc. Greg gives several good examples of this in the KAP core book I read one such story to my mom and she said sounds like to her this knight was a sorry excuse for a knight because he keep loosing his money, and if not for his wife he would have been a landless, poorness, horseless, sword less, excuse for a knight. It is found on pg 160 in KAP 5th edition book under Land concerning the value of good stewardship go read it to your players at the next game secession and say this is the type of woman your knight has married which will make the other knights dweller over her and make them say dam, now that's the type of woman to have.

Also it is the gm's job to asses every knights holding like a good liege lord does and also remember if his wife's stewardship is 16+ her income goes up especially if thier is a good to excallent harvest, so you must keep track of each knights land and their npc wife like I do if not your not a very good gm on this point, and if a lady is playing I make her do all that work for me during the winter phase in the solo adventure of your land of the winter phase.

Just becuse you get to become a landed Knight does not mean you have a say over this land after all yes it's your land by gift but she also knows how to run it her way or it's the landless by way for you good knight.

Ok Here is a simple way of how I would handle this in my campaign the reason as too why such a high dowry is this he gets to marry have a wife have a title and have lands but has no say over how the money is spent after all this is considered to be a steward's job of industry and any knight got doing this kind of work can loose their knight hood remember in the KAP books [snip]

That's ahistoric, anti-Mallorian, and also directly in contravention to the 4e rules (which both you and I use).

Stewards use Stewardship, not Industry. Industry is NOT the skill used to administer a fief - it's the skill used to turn cloth into clothing, wood into buildings, ore into iron, iron into swords, and cows with full udders into happy cows with empty udders.

Stewardship is the knowing of when, what, to and where to build, when to harvest, when to ignore underpayment, when to let the woods get cut...

Stewardship is within a Man's domain - tho' many a knight could afford no professional steward (a knightly profession, no less), and his wife would steward when he was absent on campaign, but when present, it was still HIS responsibility... and whether he or his wife messed up, he got the blame... and whether he or his wife was successful, he got the credit. (Tho' a modest knight would credit his wife with the successes and accept the blame for her failures.)

Now, if a knight were to be granted a holding with nothing there... he'd have to hire workers (at 1£ per month per 100 laborers - enough to build about 1£ of structure) - so mass labor projects would be double cost. Take the cost to build that pop 1 town, and double it flat out. And build it's bridge. And its 5£ chapel And remember - you'll have to get permission to hire the neighbor's locals, or pay extra for yeomen to travel... a good adventure itself for him to secure the peasants... but first, he builds that manor house... for 4£ instead of 2£... and then hires a few men at arms to guard it and his wife...

And, of course, the fun of the Lord grousing about "is it done Yet?" For several years...

I've had players decide to offer defeated non-knightly foes the option to settle... because the player needed a new village RIGHT NOW...

well in response we will have to disagree on this point, because my research turned up the following

History of the term

Stewardship originally comprised the tasks of a domestic steward. Stewardship initially referred to the household servant’s duties for bringing food and drink to the castle’s dining hall. Stewardship responsibilities were eventually expanded to encompass the domestic, service and management needs of the entire household. Commercial stewardship tends to the domestic and service requirements of passengers on ships, trains, airplanes or guests in restaurants. This concept of stewardship continues to be referenced within these specific categories. Stewardship is now generally recognized as the acceptance or assignment of responsibility to shepherd and safeguard the valuables of others.

So plan and simple in my campaigns it is woman's work and un-knightly, or a professionals job not a knights job.

Further more I have had to develop my own Alternate economics system with glory attached to pen dragon to better fit my needs and your prices are too low and use alternate winter tables as well so really this whole stewardship/industry has been really gutted and changed to one I can understand based in a more Rationale way of doing things as i have said in other posts

I needed, for my own purposes, a system that let me know what went where and how big it was. Moreover, I wanted more reasons to spend PC/NPC money, and needed it in a system that was relatively easy for me to grasp. So, I did some research, and hybridized elements of Lordly Domains and Noble's Book.

Also in real life I have worked a farm and ranch and stewardship-ed one in my opinion it is very hard work and yes very industrious but very rewording as well.

You will find in the Book of the Estate that the business of running the thing has been totally ceded to wives or professionals. Knights have better things to do.


T.

You will find in the Book of the Estate that the business of running the thing has been totally ceded to wives or professionals. Knights have better things to do.


T.


One more reason not to switch... the dichotomy of campaigning being the knightly behavior, but stewarding the land being the vassal's obligation was one of the more interesting things about KAP pre-5.

One more reason not to switch... the dichotomy of campaigning being the knightly behavior, but stewarding the land being the vassal's obligation was one of the more interesting things about KAP pre-5.


Well, I don't know if that will be such a huge change, in practice. All of our PKs have relied either on wives or hired professionals to do their Stewardship for them, while they have been adventuring. However, they have taken a keen interest in deciding on which improvements to build and so forth.

I'd definitely expect the knights to take a keen interest if anything goes wrong in their lands, though. After all, it is their responsibility, even if the routine is overseen by wives/stewards.

Well, I don't know if that will be such a huge change, in practice. All of our PKs have relied either on wives or hired professionals to do their Stewardship for them, while they have been adventuring. However, they have taken a keen interest in deciding on which improvements to build and so forth.

I'd definitely expect the knights to take a keen interest if anything goes wrong in their lands, though. After all, it is their responsibility, even if the routine is overseen by wives/stewards.

While yes and no in my campaign the woman Stewart the land and decide what is the best improvements how ever the Knight does have a say in appointing the Church priest village elder etc.
and while his wife Stewart's the land he must defend his and her land from monsters barbarian Saxons, picts robber baron's and their knights etc..

Not to go off the original topic

Maybe a PK would have to make a successful Stewardship roll to "pick what we next build at the mannor" otherwise he doesnt take an active part in it, nothing may be build and the surplus ends up in the warchest.
That way if you PK want to be an adventurer and a Manor builder he has to divote the energy to it.

Or expand that you could subsitute Stwardship or another skill or trait if the improvement relates to that skill or trait.
Want to build a chaple - make a religion or Piety roll first.

One more reason not to switch... the dichotomy of campaigning being the knightly behavior, but stewarding the land being the vassal's obligation was one of the more interesting things about KAP pre-5.


That's one opinion. Others hold that micromanaging the manor's economy is too tedious and time consuming for players, which is a compelling reason to switch. You can always continue to use the Book of the Manor if you so choose; the two systems are not mutually exclusive. You could even use Manor with one player and Estate with another, if you had a mind. Estate is an alternative to Manor, not a replacement.

You say "one more reason." I'm curious as to what the other reasons are, since I've seen no others offered in these forums and you've not seen the book.


T.

Well if your looking at it from a historical point of view then yes women did steward the lands when the husband was away, but at the same time a good wife also realizes that the power is held by her husband and he has the final say because it is his title and lands and not hers. Aramis is correct in saying that the skill is stewardship for the roll and to also remember that the second most powerful person in any land was the chancellor A.K.A. the Steward. It was not considered an un-knightly ability to balance the books and maintain wealth because with that ability came the prestige of always having money to spend and not have to deal with the constant need to find more wealth.

it is one more reason not to switch to 5e....

I regretted buying 5e.

I regretted buying 5e.

Well I didn't regrit buying it i use quite a bit out of it greg actaully put quite a bii o good work into it I thought
And fixed a few things wrong with 4 e but overall I use it mainly to refer to the example stories like the one i quoted earlier and others.
I also liked how he laid out all of the titles from high to low born and gave detailed discriptions of them. As I said before I was greatly destressed about how magic was viewed I am now devopling my own hybried now. I like 4th ed and mainy use it as my baseline now but also in corporate parts of the other eddtions into it as i think they apply to my game and players which in cludes 5th ed into it most of games now