I have probably opened similar threads in the past for some of these sub-issues, but I figure it might be useful to have this kind of a summary. (If this is dealt in detail in Book of Estate, great, let me know and it will increase my motivation to buy the book by quite a large margin. :) )

Duties of a Vassal Knight (5th Ed., p. 16)
- 40+20 days service in war
- 3kk Garrison Duty
- Appear in Court whenever the Lord needs advice

In addition, a knight needs to get permission from the Lord to marry, as hinted at the Winter Phase Loyalty(Lord) -roll to get the permission to marry within the class. By the way, is this only the right of the -Liege- Lord, i.e. your primary Lord? So, say that you hold a Manor from King Arthur and from the local banneret, you probably would ask Arthur for permission to marry?

Also, there is a custom of owing hospitality towards one's lord, so in principle, the Lord can arrive with his entourage and the vassal knight simply has to pay and endure it. And of course pay the relief (inheritance tax) to inherit the estate in the first place.

Now, as long as the Vassal Knight and the Lord get along, there is unlikely to be a problem. But what happens when this is not the case and the Lord starts pushing?


Lets imagine a situation where the Lord has manors say in Salisbury and in Normandy. He himself stays in Salisbury, but has a vassal knight in Normandy in his manor.

1) Can he demand that the vassal knight crosses the channel every month or so to advice his Lord in Salisbury? This is a huge financial and time burden to a vassal knight, likely preventing him from doing much else and also bankrupting him. This was an extreme case, but lets say that the Lord would demand attendance say three times per year, which is already a burden?

2) Can the Lord arrive with his entourage to the vassal knight's estate and simply expect to be fed for a couple of months, again bankrupting the vassal knight?

3) Can the Lord deny the permission to marry, and hence prevent the birth of legitimate heirs, and thus ensure that the estate will revert back to the Lord when the vassal knight dies?


My Answers as What Would Be Just IMHO:

1) While allowances would have to be made for Kings and such, I do see the Attendance at Court on Demand something that is intended for County Scale. So if you hold a manor in Salisbury, you can be summoned to Court in Salisbury, but not, say, to York. Thus, the vassal knight in Normandy would attend the Court in Normandy, not in Salisbury.

2) A Just thing to do would be for the Lord to give a gift about equal to the cost of the hospitality. So it is cost neutral for the vassal knight. Of course, it depends on the cost a bit. A brief visit from the Lord costing like £1 is something unworthy to mention, especially if the vassal knight had a good harvest, but the Lord living on the vassal knight's expense is clearly abusing the system.

3) I think the Lord generally would have to have a good reason to deny the marriage. I could see the Lord refusing permission to marry an 'enemy', for instance, the Earl of Salisbury denying permission to marry a lady from Levcomagus, and he likely would be supported by other vassal knights of Salisbury. But if there is no good reason, and the Lord keeps on turning all candidates down, I think it would start making people uneasy.


If the Lord tries to abuse the system, I think it would lead to Arbitrary Checks, and in more serious cases, Honor Loss as well, as he is not really honoring his end of the oath of allegiance. And of course, the vassal does have the power to complain to the Higher-up Lord of the Lord, so for instance, up to Arthur if the Lord is the Earl of Salisbury. This of course would make the relationship even worse, but if there is clear abuse, I think the other vassals would be sympathetic as well.


Oh, finally... Aid and Counsel are listed as the two things that you'd actually promise in an oath to become a vassal. So are the marriage permission and hospitality more like customs than actual duties? I do know that one noble family who shut the gates of their castle to Queen Isabelle of England suffered for it, as the King declared them traitors. But presumably, there are limits to what is a socially acceptable 'visit'. What happens when a vassal knight 'elopes' and marries a woman anyway? Can the Lord declare the manor forfeit and take it back?

I have probably opened similar threads in the past for some of these sub-issues, but I figure it might be useful to have this kind of a summary. (If this is dealt in detail in Book of Estate, great, let me know and it will increase my motivation to buy the book by quite a large margin. :) )

I try not to put extraneous information into books

so there is new material in ESTATE
and also some more in WARLORDS
and probably some in UTHER too
I do this for two reasons:
1. to spread the information out gradually
and to put every possible obligation would just scare people away
2. to sell books


Duties of a Vassal Knight (5th Ed., p. 16)
- 40+20 days service in war
- 3kk Garrison Duty

where is the +20 from?
what is 3kk?


- Appear in Court whenever the Lord needs advice

In addition, a knight needs to get permission from the Lord to marry, as hinted at the Winter Phase Loyalty(Lord) -roll to get the permission to marry within the class. By the way, is this only the right of the -Liege- Lord, i.e. your primary Lord? So, say that you hold a Manor from King Arthur and from the local banneret, you probably would ask Arthur for permission to marry?

Depends on who you are marrying as well
You need permission from her father, or her custos, custodian (for which, be prepared to pay.)


Also, there is a custom of owing hospitality towards one's lord, so in principle, the Lord can arrive with his entourage and the vassal knight simply has to pay and endure it. And of course pay the relief (inheritance tax) to inherit the estate in the first place.
Now, as long as the Vassal Knight and the Lord get along, there is unlikely to be a problem. But what happens when this is not the case and the Lord starts pushing?

Depends on the Phase, of course


Lets imagine a situation where the Lord has manors say in Salisbury and in Normandy. He himself stays in Salisbury, but has a vassal knight in Normandy in his manor.
1) Can he demand that the vassal knight crosses the channel every month or so to advice his Lord in Salisbury? This is a huge financial and time burden to a vassal knight, likely preventing him from doing much else and also bankrupting him. This was an extreme case, but lets say that the Lord would demand attendance say three times per year, which is already a burden?

Early phase: yes
Unfair? Yes
Historically this was finally settled by King, um, Henry I, I think
who agreed he couldn't make his vassals cross the channel


2) Can the Lord arrive with his entourage to the vassal knight's estate and simply expect to be fed for a couple of months, again bankrupting the vassal knight?

Thje king can
and often did
It's a way to control his uppity vassals and keep them from actively doing things
So in KAP
any liege lord can do it, in the Early Phase
Possibly in the Middle Phase too--I will work that out precisely when I write the book of the Barons


3) Can the Lord deny the permission to marry, and hence prevent the birth of legitimate heirs, and thus ensure that the estate will revert back to the Lord when the vassal knight dies?

He cannot prevent a marriage
He can prevent specific marriages
and the King has the final word, so if a marriage is denied by a liege, the vassal can go to the king.
Bring money


My Answers as What Would Be Just IMHO:
1) While allowances would have to be made for Kings and such, I do see the Attendance at Court on Demand something that is intended for County Scale. So if you hold a manor in Salisbury, you can be summoned to Court in Salisbury, but not, say, to York. Thus, the vassal knight in Normandy would attend the Court in Normandy, not in Salisbury.

I do not think so
crossing the channel is one thing
but without doubt, if the king calls, you go wherever he is, no matter how long it takes
I think it would be wise to do the same for any lord who has lands in several places


2) A Just thing to do would be for the Lord to give a gift about equal to the cost of the hospitality. So it is cost neutral for the vassal knight. Of course, it depends on the cost a bit. A brief visit from the Lord costing like £1 is something unworthy to mention, especially if the vassal knight had a good harvest, but the Lord living on the vassal knight's expense is clearly abusing the system.

No
That would be Generous
but is not expected
Do not underestimate the given powers of the nobility


3) I think the Lord generally would have to have a good reason to deny the marriage. I could see the Lord refusing permission to marry an 'enemy', for instance, the Earl of Salisbury denying permission to marry a lady from Levcomagus, and he likely would be supported by other vassal knights of Salisbury. But if there is no good reason, and the Lord keeps on turning all candidates down, I think it would start making people uneasy.

Agreedf
and the aggrieved knight would go to the king


If the Lord tries to abuse the system, I think it would lead to Arbitrary Checks, and in more serious cases, Honor Loss as well, as he is not really honoring his end of the oath of allegiance.

Arbitrary? Sometimes
Honor loss? I don't think so
He can claim to be doing the right ting
take it to court, if a disagreement arises
or see the king
who might just send it to his jusiticiers anyway


And of course, the vassal does have the power to complain to the Higher-up Lord of the Lord, so for instance, up to Arthur if the Lord is the Earl of Salisbury. This of course would make the relationship even worse, but if there is clear abuse, I think the other vassals would be sympathetic as well.

other Vassals have to be very careful
If it is not their fight then they are risking losing their own lands


Oh, finally... Aid and Counsel are listed as the two things that you'd actually promise in an oath to become a vassal. So are the marriage permission and hospitality more like customs than actual duties?

I am not sure those are separable
Ancient Law and Custom are the basis for all rights and actions
Even today in UK Common Law is the basis for rights


I do know that one noble family who shut the gates of their castle to Queen Isabelle of England suffered for it, as the King declared them traitors.

and rightfully so


But presumably, there are limits to what is a socially acceptable 'visit'.

In Middle Phase the king will be eliminating that right and getting a payment instead
The custom will drift downward to his vassals too


What happens when a vassal knight 'elopes' and marries a woman anyway? Can the Lord declare the manor forfeit and take it back?

Yes, he can, and will
The best known case is probably the daughter of Henry III (?) who married Simon de Montfort
who was dispossessed of his holdings
but later got them back
and led a successful revolt
(well, successful for a while)
I do request correction on these personalities if I am in error

Thanks for the answers, Greg, and reminding me of Eleanor Plantagenet and Simon de Montfort, Earl of Leicester. However, I think we agree that eloping with the King's sister is a bit of a faux pas in the polite society. :)

I meant 3 months of Garrison Duty. Not that it was the main thrust of the question.

Alright, so what happens if the vassal knight owns lands say in Salisbury and in Silchester and in Normandy? Will he then need three Lords' permission to marry? Does it matter what the relative statuses are? Lets say his first lord is another vassal knight, his second a banneret knight, and the third is a count in Normandy. Of course, I expect that it might play a role in the subsequent court case, if the other vassal knight said no but the count said yes and is willing to back the disinherited knight up. But each of those lords who said no could repossess the lands within his purview.

Alright. I think this was helpful. Thanks again, Greg!

Let's settle on his liege lord's word is what's necessary.
Normally that will be the most powerful or influential lord.
There is a ceremony for being released by your current liege lord so you can become a liege vassal of a greater one.

-g


Thanks for the answers, Greg, and reminding me of Eleanor Plantagenet and Simon de Montfort, Earl of Leicester. However, I think we agree that eloping with the King's sister is a bit of a faux pas in the polite society. :)

I meant 3 months of Garrison Duty. Not that it was the main thrust of the question.

Alright, so what happens if the vassal knight owns lands say in Salisbury and in Silchester and in Normandy? Will he then need three Lords' permission to marry? Does it matter what the relative statuses are? Lets say his first lord is another vassal knight, his second a banneret knight, and the third is a count in Normandy. Of course, I expect that it might play a role in the subsequent court case, if the other vassal knight said no but the count said yes and is willing to back the disinherited knight up. But each of those lords who said no could repossess the lands within his purview.

Alright. I think this was helpful. Thanks again, Greg!

Lets say his first lord is another vassal knight, his second a banneret knightWouldn't that be the same? A vassal knight, that enfeoffes another knight as his vassal, IS in fact a banneret. As far as I understand is this the definition of a banneret. Am I wrong?

Lets say his first lord is another vassal knight, his second a banneret knightWouldn't that be the same? A vassal knight, that enfeoffes another knight as his vassal, IS in fact a banneret. As far as I understand is this the definition of a banneret. Am I wrong?


It is a difference in scale. At least in 4th Edition, the definition of a banneret was a knight who had at least other 7 knights sworn to him, of which at least 3 had to be enfoeffed vassal knights rather than mere household knights.

I think Greg mentioned at some point that bannerets would be more like an office than an actual inherited title, but he is a better person to reveal his current thinking.

Anyway, the progression was basically from a near-equal (like a knight with a manor and another enfoeffed to this vassal), to a stronger-but-still-a-knight, to a Count.

Duties of a Vassal Knight (5th Ed., p. 16)
- 40+20 days service in war
- 3kk Garrison Duty
- Appear in Court whenever the Lord needs advice

KAP ways it's set in the 12th and 13th century (at least to start with). The 40 days foreign service was often already commuted into a scutage this early. One of the provisions of Magna Carta that were forced upon John Lackland was that vassals could perform this rather than paying a scutage. The 3 months castle ward had normally been commuted in the 12th century into a money payment called ward silver. Originally it had been actually served in rotation by 4 groups [constabularia] of 10 knights, so the original minimum number of vassal knights was 40 for a castle. The court the vassal had to appear at was the home court of the Lord, or the court a vassal held his lands from. for Salisbury this would be count Roderick's court at Sarum castle.


In addition, a knight needs to get permission from the Lord to marry, as hinted at the Winter Phase Loyalty(Lord) -roll to get the permission to marry within the class. By the way, is this only the right of the -Liege- Lord, i.e. your primary Lord? So, say that you hold a Manor from King Arthur and from the local banneret, you probably would ask Arthur for permission to marry?

Thorny question, under the English system all feudal land was held from the king as liege lord theoretically, but actually from a baron as liege lord. The knight had normally only done homage and fealty to the baron, so he was his only effective liege lord.


Also, there is a custom of owing hospitality towards one's lord, so in principle, the Lord can arrive with his entourage and the vassal knight simply has to pay and endure it. And of course pay the relief (inheritance tax) to inherit the estate in the first place.

A lord could not really abuse this much, as he had to consume the produce of his own lands, in the 12th century one could not just convert produce to cash without a substantial loss, even 13th century after the commercial revolution, Henry III issue of a gold penny failed because their was not a big enough market economy in England to need one.


...3) Can the Lord deny the permission to marry, and hence prevent the birth of legitimate heirs, and thus ensure that the estate will revert back to the Lord when the vassal knight dies?....
If the Lord tries to abuse the system, I think it would lead to Arbitrary Checks, and in more serious cases, Honor Loss as well, as he is not really honoring his end of the oath of allegiance. And of course, the vassal does have the power to complain to the Higher-up Lord of the Lord, so for instance, up to Arthur if the Lord is the Earl of Salisbury. This of course would make the relationship even worse, but if there is clear abuse, I think the other vassals would be sympathetic as well.


Oh, finally... Aid and Counsel are listed as the two things that you'd actually promise in an oath to become a vassal. So are the marriage permission and hospitality more like customs than actual duties? I do know that one noble family who shut the gates of their castle to Queen Isabelle of England suffered for it, as the King declared them traitors. But presumably, there are limits to what is a socially acceptable 'visit'. What happens when a vassal knight 'elopes' and marries a woman anyway? Can the Lord declare the manor forfeit and take it back?

The lord had only very limited rights. If a Damsel or Knight married without his permission, he could amerce [fine] them, but could not really stop the marriage. Plenty of Damsels and Knights married without permission in the real middle ages in England. The lord if he wished to fine or seize a fee/fief had to sue the vassal with the homage (the body of vassals) acting as jury. If the Lord was being arbitrary he would lose his suit against the damsel, widow or knight , but if they married an enemy of the lord and his homage they would likely rule for the lord, even then the vassal normally had to bear arms against the lord. William Marshal kept his lands in France when John Lackland lost his, because he would not serve John against the King of France.