I got into a rather lengthy argument with one of my players on this subject. He was determined to convince me that when his knight lied to another knight, it was not dishonorable because it was in keeping with his personal code of honor, which allowed for deceit.

I'd be curious to know if any other campaigns have confronted the question of the interactinos between deceit and honor, and how others interpret this question.

My inclination is to say that if a player is caught in a lie by his peers, then it is dishonorable. However if he lies and gets away with it and nobody is the wiser, it isn't. In this sense, I'm treating honor as reputation, as a subjective and not objective concept.

But that's just me.

I say it depends a lot on the circumstances. Lying to one's lord is bad. Lying to one's comrades is bad as well. Lying to strangers is being cagey. Lying to enemies is smart. Also, depends on the lie. I don't think many would think less of a knight who lies to protect a lady's honor, or even to lie to her brother/husband about a bit of flirting going on between the knight and the lady. However, promising to marry her and then defaulting would be a big deal, as a promise to marry is considered a binding betrothal. In effect, you have given your word, and that is a big deal.

Sir Brastias your player is clearly wrong. Honor in both KAP and the real middle ages was not "a personal code". It was ones reputation and one's sense of obligation. KAP mixes modern ideas of honor with medieval ones - which muddies the water somewhat, but with a penalty of -3 for oath breaking it seems superficially to be against lying. Ah, but Knights gain glory for betraying other Knights in their amours.

Like the real middle ages it depends upon ones culture. The Occitans, Italians, and Byzantines valued deceit and lies being the heirs to late period Roman culture (which was totally corrupt and villainous). Courtly love spread from them north to cultures like the Frankish/French (including England) and Germany which despised lying, treachery and corruption. If your game is the standard Cymric one lying should dishonor a little as it damages ones reputation takes the character to the point where they're shunned and even those talking to them get shunned.

Even if it is seen as very despicable, there would always be exceptions. Deceiving or lying to enemies never dishonored as it was expected, only going over the line into actual oath breaking was seen as wrong. There was also the concept of "sins of necessity" not being real sins. did someone stealing an apple commit a mortal sin if they were starving - the answer was no. Did Sir Gawain commit a dishonorable deed when he lied to the Green Knight - again no.

I can understand the difficulty. Although I agree with Morien and Snaggle in their interpretation the rulebook explains the Honor passion as a 'personal honor'. It is even stated that it may include anything the character feels is included within the passion. On the other hand it also explains a series of dishonorable acts that everyone agrees on. So it makes this passion a difficult one. It is closely tied to the Honest and Proud traits.

I would say that honor is a sort of measure of integrity. If it becomes known that you are lying, then what good is your word?

I would say that for instance in the example of Morien about lying to protect the honor of a lady that the lying was dishonorable, but protecting a ladies honor would be very honorable. As such it would have no effect.

I might inject here a bit from the core rulebook's description of the Honest/Deceitful Trait:

"To be honest is to deal truthfully with others, both in matters of import or triviality, no matter what the consequences."

Italics mine. Just sayin'...


T.

I might inject here a bit from the core rulebook's description of the Honest/Deceitful Trait:

"To be honest is to deal truthfully with others, both in matters of import or triviality, no matter what the consequences."

Italics mine. Just sayin'...


T.


“ Victorious Knights win first and then attack, while defeated Knights attack first and then seek to win.”

“ All combat is won by deception.”

“ In combat practice deception and you'll win.”

- Count Sun of castle Han (a bit to the East of Saxony)

Asian philosophy to counter western moral standarts? Seems strange to me. ;)

Additionally, i wouldnt consider combat tactic as lying, even when its full of deception. If you declare war (or your enemy does so), you can expect in every way, that tricks and surprises will come. Only if you agreed on some term (like not to attack civilians), that word is honor bound. And to break that word makes it a lie.

I agree that real-life comparisons of the way warfare was waged historically doesn't have much bearing on a game based on a mythical time and place — one where knightly ideals like honesty may be pursued by imaginary characters and occasionally realized. Surely a knight of Honest 16+ would have a hard time lying under most circumstances, and one with a 20+ might adhere to the ideal quoted in the Trait description above. That's what the Trait roll is for. Will he be Honest or not? Many knights of average Honesty won't have a compunction about lying, especially to a foe. Other, more fanatical character's may think God is on their side and the truth will out. Or that they need not resort to such deceits to defeat their enemy. PENDRAGON is fantasy medieval, not historical medieval. I understand — and desire — verisimilitude as well. Very much so. I spend countless hours in research trying to achieve it. But the basic milieu of the game should not be lost in the process.


T.