In 5th edition, the listings for Devizes, Vagon (etc) indicate that they have "five knights, XX footmen..." I assumed those knights were actually manor-holders/vassals of the Earl serving their duties. So that those posts didn't actually have knights permanently assigned to them or the castellan. But a recent post here made it sound like the Earl of Salisbury has almost 200 knights which would allow for permanent knights assigned to those fortifications. And if they are permanent bachelor knights, do they owe allegiance to the Earl or the Castellan?

Is there any official word or is a YMMV situation in each campaign?

They'd be the Earl's household knights and thus owe their allegiance to the Earl. The Castellan is just an official of the Earl's, who has been given the command over these knights. Of course, the Castellan might have a more personal relationship over these knights but ultimately, it is the Earl who pays their upkeep and owns their allegiance (in principle).

In real history, what happened often was that the King didn't garrison all his castles by himself, but basically appointed a nobleman as the castellan and let him, if he had the knights and men for it, deal with the cost of garrisoning the castle. That of course had the advantage of being cheap, but had the disadvantage that if the castellan was disloyal, the castle was full of his men, ready to rebel on his whim.

In Carolingian France, what happened was that the office of the Castellan, and the lordship of the surrounding lands to support the castle's garrison, became hereditary, and hence gave rise to the lovely patchwork of fractious vassals-in-name-only, with the king's rule only applying within Ile-de-France, and not everywhere there, either. Anjou, Maine, Poitou, etc... have their origins in these overmighty castellans.

Historically vassal knights might also owe Castle Duty. So some of the knights might be vassal knights augmenting local forces for a few months.

And if they are permanent bachelor knights, do they owe allegiance to the Earl or the Castellan?
Is there any official word or is a YMMV situation in each campaign?

YPWV is always true
Having said that, please understand that a castellan is not a permanent position
It is the guy who is in charge of a castle
In this case, he is appointed by the Count
Thus the knights are loyal to the Count

Also, there are no knight permanently assigned to the castle
They are assigned as needed, and sort of rotate through

Having said that, please understand that a castellan is not a permanent position
It is the guy who is in charge of a castle
In this case, he is appointed by the Count
Thus the knights are loyal to the Count

Yeah, I know that Castellan is simply an officer. That's where I'm getting tied up. Would these knights be the household knights of Vagon, serving the Castellan, with the liege lord as the Count.


Also, there are no knight permanently assigned to the castle
They are assigned as needed, and sort of rotate through

And that clears up part of it. But do they come from the player characters or the Count's Household?

Basically, I'm trying to figure out how many bloody knights are in Salisbury... If we add up manors, castles and the Earl we get one number. If we assume the manorial knights and household knights are also the garrison knights (serving their feudal duty at the castle), then we get significantly smaller amount of knights.

Most folks/posts have indicated around 70-90 knights in Salisbury indicating that the garrison knights are also the manorial/household knights. But someone (might have been Stafford) posted elsewhere that the Count of Salisbury had over 150 knights...

So do I count the garrison knights in total number or would doing so be double-counting? Or is it up to me...

Yeah, I know that Castellan is simply an officer. That's where I'm getting tied up. Would these knights be the household knights of Vagon, serving the Castellan, with the liege lord as the Count.

It is probably that when the lord of Vagon got his holding, part of the specifics included a clause that his knights had to serve 40 days as garrison of wherever the Count said. Thus there would be one or two of them serving at any 40-day period.



Also, there are no knight permanently assigned to the castle
They are assigned as needed, and sort of rotate through

And that clears up part of it. But do they come from the player characters or the Count's Household?

Basically, I'm trying to figure out how many bloody knights are in Salisbury...
[/quote]
Oh, that is easy
About 100 that serve the Count
He has others in his other castles


If we add up manors, castles and the Earl we get one number. If we assume the manorial knights and household knights are also the garrison knights (serving their feudal duty at the castle), then we get significantly smaller amount of knights.

I have changed the number from the core book
It says 50 knights
If that is so, then there are another 100 cavalrymen, too
later it will be a nice 150 knights
of which 25 are vassal knights


So do I count the garrison knights in total number or would doing so be double-counting? Or is it up to me...

The garrison knights serve on a rotating basis, from the household knights and vassals
Same goes for Sarum Rock Castle--rotating through