Some discussion on Britain, c. 500AD, with a couple of potentially useful maps:

http://marie-mckeown.hubpages.com/hub/Irish-Blood-Genetic-Identity#

Enjoy!


T.

Thanks for the info on the irish and the keltoi, Sir Taliesin. I am really curious about the strong realtionship of Orkney to Arthur in the medieval literature. The epic struggle between the Orkney Clan and the Ganis Clan seems to suggest that some ancient feud is remembered. Add to that Arthur is related to the Orkneys, but not to the Ganis, and it is suggestive of Orkney as being a powerful political center at that time. Is it possible that the importance of the old Ebaracum fort had been superseeded by a new Orkney chief sometime before the Saxon Invasion? Might King Lot have been a Caledonian King? Any ideas?

I'd be very careful about over-interpreting the legends as historical memories. Especially the Orkney and de Ganis strife, since Lancelot is a later addition to the saga. Or did you mean Pellinore's get, de Gales?

Also, Lot was the King of Lothian to begin with, the area of Lowland Scotland around Edinburgh. So a reasonably important and wealthy locale, much more so than the windswept Orkneys. And his connection to Arthur is via a marriage of Uther's daughter, which makes sense that the High King of Logres would try to marry his daughters off to powerful neighboring kings. Marriage alliance is one of the oldest tricks in the book, if not the oldest.

So no, I do not believe that the Orkney Islands were a power in the age of Saxon invasions. They did play a local role later in the Viking Age, what with the Viking raids to Scotland and Ireland, but even then they were important only as part of the local scuffle.

Hi Morien, thanks for the input; i agree with your points, and in the main it is the spur to my quest - to find the logic behind the choice of Orkney as an ally to a britian beseiged by saxons, picts, and irish. In the edition of Mallory that i am reading, Pellinore and his sons are "de Ganis", so that is what I used. Lancelot is related to them as a cousin in this edition. Anyway, as for not reading too much into a myth.... even if there is not a historical figure behind the myth, there is a contextual element which is just as intriguing, revealing clues about the society who believed in the legends.

As to Arthur's other brother-in-law, Urien has a historical figure - the king of Rheged. He and his son Owaine exist in local legend, but also in some quasi-historical documentation and supportive archeological finds. Rheged is ideally situated to deal with Pictish raiders and Irish pirates, and is a logical choice for an alliance. This is enough to enflame my desire to learn of King Lot.

Geoffery of Monmouth states that Lot is king of Lothian, but is also heir to the Norwegian throne, and thus overlord of Orkney. Quite a fantastic person to choose as an ally to Arthur, and a locality in the extreme north or even beyond the sea appears too remote for a useful alliance. Surely, there were plenty of british lords nearer the saxon shore or on the friendly side of the Antonine who would have made more reasonable allies for the purpose of the legend? So why go through the effort of linking the Pendragon to the Orkneys, if the Orkneys are insignificant?

But then again, it may be that the vikings visited and partially settled Orkney far earlier than their 10th c. conquest, and that a rich trade evolved because of it, and an alliance would have made sense ... so, is there any evidence of this being the case?

I've never been convinced that the Orkney Isles were a power center
They are, and always have been, a pretty bleak place, practically without innate natural resources

I have interpreted the "Orkney Clan" as deriving their name from Lot, who would have been "de Orkney" because he was born there
rather like John of Gaunt was born in Gaunt (modern Ghent)

Then Lot de Orkney got so famous, because he took over a large piece of rich territory and finagled it into being the Lord of the North
and was so esteemed that it was named after him!

That is how Lothian got its name.

Geoffery of Monmouth states that Lot is king of Lothian, but is also heir to the Norwegian throne, and thus overlord of Orkney. Quite a fantastic person to choose as an ally to Arthur, and a locality in the extreme north or even beyond the sea appears too remote for a useful alliance. Surely, there were plenty of british lords nearer the saxon shore or on the friendly side of the Antonine who would have made more reasonable allies for the purpose of the legend? So why go through the effort of linking the Pendragon to the Orkneys, if the Orkneys are insignificant?

But then again, it may be that the vikings visited and partially settled Orkney far earlier than their 10th c. conquest, and that a rich trade evolved because of it, and an alliance would have made sense ... so, is there any evidence of this being the case?



I think the Alliance does make sense, here is why.

This Alliance may have been made more out of precaution than a useful ally in war. Also King Lot may have pledged a large amount of gold to Arthurs war efforts instead of men as part of the deal in return for a promise to defend the north. Perhaps this alliance had more to do with escallating raids along the coast, that could eventually lead to full out war, by allying with Lot he could keep the possibility of a war with Norway starting up at a minimum.

Arthur would want to do because he was planning on conquering the lands of Western Europe and needed Norway focused around the Baltic Sea with its raids. Lot was known to be very rich, possibly from his position as heir of Norway and perhaps some coveted trade with the Northmen, that he didnt want Arthurs meddling in. This alliance was probably sought after by Lot and his fame and cunning where enough to convince Arthur he needed Lot on his side. After Urien, Lot was the most famous King past Hadrians wall. This was ideal for Lot so he could build up for his real ambition to conquer Arthur's realm. Its stands to reason Lot manipulated Arthur a bit with this Alliance as well. Its also makes sense for Arthur to get homage from both Kings just beyond the wall and not just Uriens. Also his Father Uther already set up these alliances, in the past so he would he honering old alliances by bringing both into his service.