I have moved this here and started a new Topic, as seems appropriate


Say your knight has to recruit knights for his new household. More specifically, let's say he wants to recruit one of Lord Salisbury's household knights to his own household. Assume the knight is on good terms with Salisbury, how would you handle this transaction? I imagine first you have to determine if Salisbury is willing to part with the household knight (see the Book of the Estate p. 21). How would you set this probability on a d20 roll? I imagine a successful Courtesy roll and gifts might modify this roll.

Obtaining Knights From Another Lord's Household Table
Step 1. Attempt Courtesy Roll OR Diplomacy Roll ×2
Success = go to Step 2
Failure = No Transfer
Step 2. Make the Request
"Requesting Lord" = lord making Request
"Retaining Lord" = Lord who already has the requested knight's service
“Knight” = the knight who is being requested
Modifiers
Calculate Modifiers, which are cumulative
Requesting Lord is:
King: +40
Lord of Retaining Knight, +40
Vassal of Retaining Lord, +1 per 5 points of "Loyal to Vassals" of Retaining Lord
Each Favor Owed, +1-5 per favor, depending on the value of the favor
Kinsman of Retaining Lord:
Son, +5
Uncle or Brother, +4
Brother-in-law, Nephew or 1st Cousin +3
Great Nephew or 2nd Cousin, +2
3rd Cousin, +1
Enemy of Retaining Lord, -1 per point of Requesting Lord's Hate
-5 per point of Retaining Lord's Hate
Unknown to Retaining Lord, same values as if an as Enemy
Equal in Nobility to Retaining Lord, +2
Friend of the Retaining Lord, +2
Knight is:
-2 per point of his Homage to his Lord over 15
+2 per point of his Homage to his Lord under 15 but over 10
+5 per point of his Homage to his Lord under 10
Kinsman to Requesting Lord, +2
Favorite of the Retaining Lord, -20
Gifts, +1 per £2 given
Table
Roll 1d20 on table below
Die roll, Result
01-20, no transfer
Critical Success = Transfer, with arms and armor
Success = Transfer

In just words: a lord needs some good reasons to transfer a knight who has sworn homage


Assuming all that happens, the BoE further specifies that the departing knight must return his horse and arms. So I imagine the recruiting lord has to pay for new gear, eh? Which one of the levels below would be most appropriate? Normal? So the recruiting knight needs to come up with about £20?

Normal equipment is appropriate
Price varies with the Period

Roll 1d20 on table below
Die roll, Result
01-20, no transfer
Critical Success = Transfer, with arms and armor
Success = Transfer


Hmm, I dont understand that last 'roll on table' and then talking about crit or success roll.
It's either a table roll or a skil roll, right?

Also "Vassal of Retaining Lord, +1 per 5 points of "Loyal to Vassals" of Retaining Lord", so a retaining lord who is very loyal to his vassals is more likely to loose his vassals?

Ok, so test system:
Banneret PC asking surface of household knight from his earl.
Earl has 15 Loyal to Vassals (+3)
Two favors owned (+6)
Everyone is inbred, 2nd cousin (+2)
Friend of retaining lord (+2)
Knight has Homage 11 (+8)
That's a +21, so very very easy to obtain knights actually..

fg,
Thijs

Also "Vassal of Retaining Lord, +1 per 5 points of "Loyal to Vassals" of Retaining Lord", so a retaining lord who is very loyal to his vassals is more likely to loose his vassals?


Retaining Lord who is very loyal to his vassals is more likely to relinquish his household knights for the vassals' service. Seems reasonable enough for me, since I think the starting point here is that the knight wishes to switch lords, too. So if I want to do well by my vassals, why shouldn't I approve for such a transfer that both of my vassals seem to want?

I agree with your other comments: those modifiers seem to stack up pretty quickly, and i am curious to see the table, too.

Thanks for the comments Thijs
That being my first draft, all input is appreciated




Roll 1d20 on table below
Die roll, Result
01-20, no transfer
Critical Success = Transfer, with arms and armor
Success = Transfer

Hmm, I don't understand that last 'roll on table' and then talking about crit or success roll.
It's either a table roll or a skill roll, right?

You are right
Rather than being a modifier, we are finding a target number
or "something like a skill"


Also "Vassal of Retaining Lord, +1 per 5 points of "Loyal to Vassals" of Retaining Lord", so a retaining lord who is very loyal to his vassals is more likely to loose his vassals?

Hm, I was imagining that a great lord would have a different "Loyal to" Passion for his vassals and his knights.
I will ignore that mistake of mine
but I will be thinking of such a divided passion


Ok, so test system:
Banneret PC asking surface of household knight from his earl.
Earl has 15 Loyal to Vassals (+3)
Two favors owned (+6)

That is quite a lot of favors to owe to a vassal
Normally it would be 0


Everyone is inbred, 2nd cousin (+2)
Friend of retaining lord (+2)
Knight has Homage 11 (+8)

This should be +2
Where did your number come from


That's a +21, so very very easy to obtain knights actually..

So, using my corrections/interpretations
I get
Earl has 15 Loyal to Vassals (+3)
Everyone is inbred, 2nd cousin (+2)
Friend of retaining lord (+2)
Knight has Homage 11 (+2)
Total = 9

Thanks, Greg, et al. Yeah, in this instance a PK wants to recruit his former squire, who was "promoted" into Count Roderick's household at age 21. The squire has a high loyalty to the PK, like a second son, and the PK just got awarded an estate for slaying Gorlois — and he needs knights! So, although Book of the Estate does a great job of explaining where to find candidates, there's no real procedure (the king of thing Greg generously provided above).


T.

Knight has Homage 11 (+8)

This should be +2
Where did your number come from


"+2 per point of his Homage to his Lord under 15 but over 10"

11 is 4 points below 15. 4 * 2 = 8, so +8.

Knight has Homage 11 (+8)

This should be +2
Where did your number come from


"+2 per point of his Homage to his Lord under 15 but over 10"

11 is 4 points below 15. 4 * 2 = 8, so +8.


Yep, that's how I got to +8 as well.
Also 2 favors is not uncommon. Afterall why would you try to obtain a knight from your lord (instead of random one): because you met him before in the game.. and PC have a tendecy to rescue people etc.. so most NPC either owe the PCs a favor (or they are dead [and thus not suitable as vassal], or extremely powerful [and thus not suitable as vassal]). Likely the PC will pick the vassal that owes the most favors.. hence 2 favors.. (and I am assume medium favors here, while 'I saved your wife' +5 favors are very common).

fg,
Thijs

Likely the PC will pick the vassal that owes the most favors.. hence 2 favors.. (and I am assume medium favors here, while 'I saved your wife' +5 favors are very common).


Just to point out here, Thijs, that the favors are those that are owed by the Retaining Lord to the Requesting Lord. The Knight doesn't come into it.

But yes, that being said, it is quite common in our campaign for the PKs to do 'favors' to their Earl, so the Earl tends to be kindly disposed towards requests from the PKs.

Likely the PC will pick the vassal that owes the most favors.. hence 2 favors.. (and I am assume medium favors here, while 'I saved your wife' +5 favors are very common).


Just to point out here, Thijs, that the favors are those that are owed by the Retaining Lord to the Requesting Lord. The Knight doesn't come into it.

But yes, that being said, it is quite common in our campaign for the PKs to do 'favors' to their Earl, so the Earl tends to be kindly disposed towards requests from the PKs.


Even better, you know how many favors the Earl owes the PC for 'defending' the realm, rescueing other vassals etc...

fg
Thijs

I see interesting implications in retaining lords willingness to easily send away his less loyal household knights, and not factoring requesting lords loyalty to retaining lord in any way. ;)

Knight has Homage 11 (+8)

This should be +2
Where did your number come from

"+2 per point of his Homage to his Lord under 15 but over 10"
11 is 4 points below 15. 4 * 2 = 8, so +8.

Hm, you guys are full of lessons for me
My intent then was to say
+2 Each point over 10, but below 15

Also 2 favors is not uncommon. After all why would you try to obtain a knight from your lord (instead of random one): because you met him before in the game.. and PC have a tendecy to rescue people etc.. so most NPC either owe the PCs a favor (or they are dead [and thus not suitable as vassal], or extremely powerful [and thus not suitable as vassal]). Likely the PC will pick the vassal that owes the most favors.. hence 2 favors.. (and I am assume medium favors here, while 'I saved your wife' +5 favors are very common).

OK, I think I see where our misunderstanding comes from
Note that it says: "Each Favor Owed,"
I have assumed that a liege would not owe for these favors done, but would have already rewarded the knight for the good deed, thus already paid it off, so it is no longer owed

I have assumed that a liege would not owe for these favors done, but would have already rewarded the knight for the good deed, thus already paid it off, so it is no longer owed


OK, that makes sense. So it is kinda like 'cashing in owed favors', instead of asking for a reward.

My intent then was to say
+2 Each point over 10, but below 15


That makes little sense, Greg. Especially when you combine it with the other Loyalty modifiers:

Knight is:
-2 per point of his Homage to his Lord over 15
+2 per point of his Homage to his Lord under 15 but over 10
+5 per point of his Homage to his Lord under 10

According to you, a Knight with Loyalty
10 = +0
11 = +2
12 = +4
13 = +6
14 = +8
15 = ???, 0?
16 = -2
17 = -4

And so forth. Why would a loyalty 14 knight be so much easier to get away from the Lord than loyalty 10 knight or loyalty 15 knight? It is a contradiction. As you can see, this makes little mathematical sense, especially when we apply the same logic to the below 10 Loyalty:
1 = 1 point above zero = +5
9 = 9 points above zero = +45

No, it clearly needs to be calculated from Loyalty 15 as the base, like Thijs and I did earlier. Then, the Loyalty modifier becomes:
8 = +20
9 = +15 (+5 additional modifier per point below 10)
10 = +10
11 = +8
12 = +6
13 = +4
14 = +2 (+2 per point below 15 until 10)
15 = 0
16 = -2
17 = -4
18 = -6
19 = -8
20 = -10

And that progression makes perfect sense: the Retaining Lord is not that eager to give away his trustworthy, Famously Loyal household knights, but is more than happy to get honorably rid of household knights whose loyalty is questionable.

I had a bit of trouble understanding the modifiers that were applied. But if I look it I would say that the following aspects determine the roll:
- Relationship of Retaining lord and the Requesting lord.
- If retaining lord is higher in rank than requesting lord makes it harder, if requesting lord is higher it makes easier.
- If the requesting lord is a vassal it becomes easier (determined by the loyalty to his vassals)
- If the relationship is familial it becomes easier.
- If the relationship are enemies or unknown it becomes harder. If they are friends it becomes easier.
- Favors owed to the requesting lord.
- Gifts granted to the Retaining lord.

- Relationship of Retaining lord and Knight.
- If knight is family it becomes harder (the closer the family relationship the harder it becomes)
- If the loyalty (liege) of the knight is higher it becomes harder to get the knight.
- Knight is an officer of the lord it becomes harder (?)
- If the lord has a passion towards the knight it becomes harder.

- Relationship of Requesting lord and Knight.
- If knight is family it becomes easier (the closer the family the easier it becomes).
- If the knight has a passion towards the lord it becomes easier (?)

With these you could determine the modifiers and determine the target number.

Then, the Loyalty modifier becomes:
8 = +20
9 = +15 (+5 additional modifier per point below 10)
10 = +10
11 = +8
12 = +6
13 = +4
14 = +2 (+2 per point below 15 until 10)
15 = 0
16 = -2
17 = -4
18 = -6
19 = -8
20 = -10

And that progression makes perfect sense: the Retaining Lord is not that eager to give away his trustworthy, Famously Loyal household knights, but is more than happy to get honorably rid of household knights whose loyalty is questionable.

Yep
You got it
Thanks

Ok, so retest system
Banneret PC asking surface of household knight from his earl.
Earl has 15 Loyal to Vassals (+3)
Single favors owned [because that's when you ask](+3)
Everyone is inbred, 2nd cousin (+2)
Friend of retaining lord (+2)
Knight has Homage 11 (+8)
That's a +18, so still very very easy to obtain knights actually..

fg,
Thijs

...
Knight has Homage 11 (+8)
That's a +18, so still very very easy to obtain knights actually..


A household knight with Homage 11 is not really a man the Lord wishes to retain. :) Also, giving such a man away rather than rewarding the Banneret another way... I am not surprised that the Lord is willing to along with it. Especially as the Banneret is family AND a personal friend of the Lord.

In our campaign, the PKs would not be related to the Earl so closely, and probably not considered personal friends, just good vassals. Most of the Earl's household knights would be reasonably Loyal, 15 or so.

So it would break down as:
Earl's Loyalty Vassals 15 (+3)
Single favor owed (+3)

And that is, for a whopping +6. This gives you 15+ on a 1d20 roll, or 30% chance of the Lord agreeing to give the Banneret one of his knights, as a reward of a relatively significant task. That sounds reasonable enough.

Yes, you're right.
My players tend to be more 'major players' then default.
[Rescuing the Earl son, saving the county and defeating the Steward of Levcomagus tends to do that]

fg,
Thijs

In my opinion with the above system odds are easily better than 30%.

Rolling 2d6+6 for household knight gives an average is 13 which would give additional +4 bonus, on top of that +6.

If the retaining lord is more willing to part with less than average loyalty men, modifier quickly becomes +6, +8 or more, unless requesting knight has someone particular in mind.

Also for the highly loyal PKs (16+) (most of mine have) I would see another +2 for friendship with the retaining lord.

In my opinion with the above system odds are easily better than 30%.

Rolling 2d6+6 for household knight gives an average is 13 which would give additional +4 bonus, on top of that +6.

If the retaining lord is more willing to part with less than average loyalty men, modifier quickly becomes +6, +8 or more, unless requesting knight has someone particular in mind.

Also for the highly loyal PKs (16+) (most of mine have) I would see another +2 for friendship with the retaining lord.


So a 50/50 in ' common cases one might ask for this'...

fg,
Thijs

Three things:

Firstly, Loyalty 16+ on the part of the PK does NOT equal to him being a personal friend of the Lord. Just that he is very very loyal towards the Lord. Actual friendship takes more.

Secondly, the roll here is for the Retaining Lord to say: "Sure, I don't object if he wants to change households. Go and ask the knight." In many cases, unless there is an already established reason for the household knight to shift Lords, such as feeling a debt towards the PK or something like that, would the household knight be likely to change households?

Thirdly, like I said earlier, what does the Retaining Lord really lose by giving his consent to the shift of the household? If the household knight wishes to go, then good riddance, right? And if he doesn't, then the Retaining Lord hasn't really lost anything at all, and has avoided giving a bigger reward for whatever favor it was. Win-win.

Three things:

Firstly, Loyalty 16+ on the part of the PK does NOT equal to him being a personal friend of the Lord. Just that he is very very loyal towards the Lord. Actual friendship takes more.

Secondly, the roll here is for the Retaining Lord to say: "Sure, I don't object if he wants to change households. Go and ask the knight." In many cases, unless there is an already established reason for the household knight to shift Lords, such as feeling a debt towards the PK or something like that, would the household knight be likely to change households?

Thirdly, like I said earlier, what does the Retaining Lord really lose by giving his consent to the shift of the household? If the household knight wishes to go, then good riddance, right? And if he doesn't, then the Retaining Lord hasn't really lost anything at all, and has avoided giving a bigger reward for whatever favor it was. Win-win.

You loose armor&horse (on crit), you loose a guy perhaps with a very good sword-skill and his replacement might not be such an experienced knight.
Perhaps the lord married him to a widow, so he was living above his 'household'-knight salary (and thus providing more knight-value compared to his costs). etc etc..
Also what kind of message of loyalty does a lord give when it's ok for another knight to ask to his knights to leave. Is it a loyalty test? Does he wants to get rid of them.. Image your own boss being ok with a headhunter going round the company...

fg,
Thijs

You loose armor&horse (on crit), you loose a guy perhaps with a very good sword-skill and his replacement might not be such an experienced knight.


Well, I'd say that is a one big favor from the Lord, and likely would leave the Requesting Lord a bit in gratitude debt. Although I admit that I would feel better about it if there would be a second roll against the same number to see if it really was a critical.

Also, for a guy who is exceptionally good with a sword, see below, too...



Perhaps the lord married him to a widow, so he was living above his 'household'-knight salary (and thus providing more knight-value compared to his costs). etc etc..


May I just say: FAVORITE. :) And likely a very high Loyalty household knight, too. So something like -22 or more. Ain't gonna happen unless your last name is 'Pendragon'. :)



Also what kind of message of loyalty does a lord give when it's ok for another knight to ask to his knights to leave. Is it a loyalty test? Does he wants to get rid of them.. Image your own boss being ok with a headhunter going round the company...


Not just any knight, and not all his knights. Different situation.
Let me turn that analogy to you... Lets imagine that you are working in an OK job but a pretty boring one, and then Greg shows up, offering you a job as a playtester in his Pendragon gaming group, paying you double what you make now. Your boss says you ain't going, you are stuck here. How loyal would you be feeling now? :)

That being said, YPMV. You could easily add modifiers here. For instance, experience/skills/Glory of the knight. The Lord would be more likely to let a newbie go than a combat-tired glorious veteran.

Let me turn that analogy to you... Lets imagine that you are working in an OK job but a pretty boring one, and then Greg shows up, offering you a job as a playtester in his Pendragon gaming group, paying you double what you make now. Your boss says you ain't going, you are stuck here. How loyal would you be feeling now? :)

That being said, YPMV. You could easily add modifiers here. For instance, experience/skills/Glory of the knight. The Lord would be more likely to let a newbie go than a combat-tired glorious veteran.


Dont describe my ultimate dream :)
But this is honorable medieval and not mercenary now. In Pendragon your lord has all the right to say no as you swore an unbreakable oath.. you should be honoured he wont let you go to that 'other' knight, who might be richer, but will he treat you as family like your current lord does?
What kind of modifiers do you suggest?

fg,
Thijs

You wouldn't be likely to change Lords in such a case, as you'd be loyal to your current Lord. But if you were not famously loyal, then would you feel such an attachment to your Lord in the first place? I don't see why it would impact poorly on your loyalty if your Lord comes to you and says that there is this other Lord who would like to offer you a better job, and if you wish to take it, your Lord will let you, but he also expresses that he would be more than happy to retain your faithful and skilled sword arm in his service instead?

Anyway, modifiers...
Basic Knight Modifier: +1 (this keeps the basic knight of 1000 Glory at 0)
Glory: -1 / 1000 Glory
Exceptional skills: -2 / highest skill over 20, -1 / other skills over 20
Years in service: -1 / 5 years of service
If the combined value is -10 or more, the following often applies as well:
Knight is the Retaining Lord's favorite: -10

So, lets see how this breaks for a loyal veteran household knight. Lets assume that he has been serving his lord for 20 years. He is a middle-aged knight, with reasonable Glory (3000), and is very good with Sword (22) and Lance (21). Thanks to his long service, he is very Loyal (18).

This gives a modifier of -6 (loyal) - 4 (years in service) +1 basic knight mod - 3 (glory) - 5 (skills) -10 (favorite) = -27.

Bonus modifiers: +3 favor owed. Not going to happen. Even without the Favorite bonus, this clearly valued member of the Lord's household would still be a final modifier -14, so the Requesting Lord had better be the Retaining Lord's liege lord or something similar. And even then it would not be a sure thing.

Like it,
I would make that over skill 15 instead of 20 (not many NPCs have 20+ skills..)
Greg sorta assumes NPC yearly training as:
< 15, then +1
15+ then +1 on D6..
so unlike PC (which are exceptional) the 'break' value is 15..

fg,
Thijs

I thought the 'roll 1d6, increase skill by 1 if you roll a 1' mechanism was mainly for wives and non-knightly retainers? In any case, that approximation breaks down, IMHO, when you start talking about exceptional knights, especially if they have gained some significant Glory.

But of course feel free to do as you will in your own game. :)

I think I will start a new thread on the NPC skill levels I have some time to type it out... :)

What do you mean with "exceptional knights"?
The PC are exception to the world, they are bound by different 'game-rules'.
All NPC are by default default, unless the GM decides they are exceptional (major NPCs etc).
So a non-exceptional household knight, will likely start with 2D6+8 in sword skill, and train each year by mentioned method.
An exceptional NPC/knight will have whatever skill the GM wants him to have, and can train just as PCs (including glory points, which default NPCs dont get).
Or do you mean "knight with exceptional high skill"?
A knight with exceptional high skill can still remain a default NPC and follow the 1/6 yearly increase, unless GM decides otherwise.

fg,
Thijs

I did mean knights who are not the bog-standard average knights, who are actually named and have more Glory (3000+, 4000+) than the average knights. I do not believe that such knights should be built with the same assumptions as the basic NPCs, and it seems we agree on that point.

I do think your starting 'high skill' of 15 is too low, though. Taking 2d6+8 as the starting value for an average NPC household knight (although I would assume that a high roll does not mean a starting 21-year old knight, but someone a bit more experienced), we are left with an average value of 15. Thus, 16+ is not exceptionally high. Just a bit high, including 42% of our 'starting values'. Also, given the +1 / year until skill is 15, even the lowest possible roll (10) would reach 15 in a matter of 5 years.

How about higher starting skills?
Skill Possibility
16 14%
17 11%
18 8%
19 6%
20 3%

How much would there be an increase say, in 12 years? On average, you'd expect 2 points, right? So the vast majority of knights in their 30s would have skills of 16 or more, and skills of 17+ would be common, too. This is very much NOT an exceptional skill.

I could see 18 as a sort of exceptional, as that is around 1 in 6 of the starting values (and likely a bit older knights at that). Adding 12 years of experience, and you'd have 42% of knights with the value of 18+, though, so it is not exceptional again to find a middle-aged knight with such a skill.

Dealing with Skill 20+ is a bit harder. IMHO, the 1d6 system breaks down badly after 20, as the only way a character should be able to get a skill higher than 20 is a very lucky experience roll (1 in 20, not 1 in 6) or Glory. But lets take Skill 20 as our mark. Thus, depending what age you assign to the starting value of 18, these knights might achieve Skill 20 while still in their mid-30s. With some rare exceptions of even younger men. We'll be generous and guestimate their number as one in five. Now, these people are who I'd call exceptionally skilled.

With that in mind, I would make the modifier as:
Exceptionally high skills:
Highest skill at 20+: -2 for 20, -3 / point thereafter
Other skills at 20+: -1 for 20, -2 / point thereafter

Or something like that. YPMV and all that, of course. :)

EDIT:

The above being said, I do understand that you'd like there to be a modifier to make it harder to steal a skill 18 household knight than a skill 12 one. I think my modifiers for 20 scaled to 15 would make that a bit too difficult, so how about this...

Skilled Household Knight: -1 per point of highest skill over 15 until 20, thereafter -3 per point in excess of 20. -2 per point of other skill in excess of 20. (This comes down to -5 for skill 20 knight, close enough to what I had planned previously.)
Unskilled Household Knight: +1 per point of highest skill under 15.

Firstly, Loyalty 16+ on the part of the PK does NOT equal to him being a personal friend of the Lord. Just that he is very very loyal towards the Lord. Actual friendship takes more.



Sure, not exactly, but I feel its the closest thing here to represent positive loyalty towards retaining lord.

I did mean knights who are not the bog-standard average knights, who are actually named and have more Glory (3000+, 4000+) than the average knights. I do not believe that such knights should be built with the same assumptions as the basic NPCs, and it seems we agree on that point.

I do think your starting 'high skill' of 15 is too low, though. Taking 2d6+8 as the starting value for an average NPC household knight (although I would assume that a high roll does not mean a starting 21-year old knight, but someone a bit more experienced), we are left with an average value of 15. Thus, 16+ is not exceptionally high. Just a bit high, including 42% of our 'starting values'. Also, given the +1 / year until skill is 15, even the lowest possible roll (10) would reach 15 in a matter of 5 years.

How about higher starting skills?
Skill Possibility
16 14%
17 11%
18 8%
19 6%
20 3%

How much would there be an increase say, in 12 years? On average, you'd expect 2 points, right? So the vast majority of knights in their 30s would have skills of 16 or more, and skills of 17+ would be common, too. This is very much NOT an exceptional skill.

I could see 18 as a sort of exceptional, as that is around 1 in 6 of the starting values (and likely a bit older knights at that). Adding 12 years of experience, and you'd have 42% of knights with the value of 18+, though, so it is not exceptional again to find a middle-aged knight with such a skill.

Dealing with Skill 20+ is a bit harder. IMHO, the 1d6 system breaks down badly after 20, as the only way a character should be able to get a skill higher than 20 is a very lucky experience roll (1 in 20, not 1 in 6) or Glory. But lets take Skill 20 as our mark. Thus, depending what age you assign to the starting value of 18, these knights might achieve Skill 20 while still in their mid-30s. With some rare exceptions of even younger men. We'll be generous and guestimate their number as one in five. Now, these people are who I'd call exceptionally skilled.

With that in mind, I would make the modifier as:
Exceptionally high skills:
Highest skill at 20+: -2 for 20, -3 / point thereafter
Other skills at 20+: -1 for 20, -2 / point thereafter

Or something like that. YPMV and all that, of course. :)

EDIT:

The above being said, I do understand that you'd like there to be a modifier to make it harder to steal a skill 18 household knight than a skill 12 one. I think my modifiers for 20 scaled to 15 would make that a bit too difficult, so how about this...

Skilled Household Knight: -1 per point of highest skill over 15 until 20, thereafter -3 per point in excess of 20. -2 per point of other skill in excess of 20. (This comes down to -5 for skill 20 knight, close enough to what I had planned previously.)
Unskilled Household Knight: +1 per point of highest skill under 15.



Nice to meet another math-geek :)
I recently did a whole computer simulation what kind of skill-levels one could meet assuming one starts at 10, +1/yr, +1/6 chance> 15, assuming a flat age-distribution...
It seems that 2d6+8 is a very good approximation of that (low skill levels slightly overpresented), with the caveat that when a natural 12 (+8=20) is rolled, one rolls a D6 and on 6, adds another to skill. So the 2D6+8 is good for picking a completely random skill level. Of course if you want a 'more experienced' knight, you cant use those numbers.

NPCs with skill 20, again do not follow the PC rules, so the 1/6 stands (not the 1/20 or Glory). For me that is because there is a chance they put glory in, or spend more time training (most NPC are 1-skill specialists afteral).
I also like simple modifiers that I can remember from head (I never reach for my gaming book during play).
I'd go with -1 per skill-point over 15

Another modifier:
+5 if retained knight has personality conflict with retainer (= both have 16+ trait but opposed eg Lazy 16+ vs Energetic 16+)
+5 if retained knight has different religion than retainer [ok, maybe this one should be removed for PC]
+5 if retaining Lord has 16+ generous
+5 if retaining Lord has 16+ trusting
-5 if retaining Lord has 16+ Worldly
-5 if retaining Lord has 16+ Greed
-5 if retaining Lord has 16+ Lazy

fg,
Thijs

Dear Math Geeks

When this discussion has reached agreement, I will ask that a final system be posted, ok? And unless it is really ugly, I'll post it on my site.

Thank you guys.

Current Modifiers
Calculate Modifiers, which are cumulative
Requesting Lord is:
King: +40
Lord of Retaining Knight, +40
Vassal of Retaining Lord, +1 per 5 points of "Loyal to Vassals" of Retaining Lord
Each Favor Owed, +1-5 per favor, depending on the value of the favor
Kinsman of Retaining Lord:
Son, +5
Uncle or Brother, +4
Brother-in-law, Nephew or 1st Cousin +3
Great Nephew or 2nd Cousin, +2
3rd Cousin, +1
Enemy of Retaining Lord, -1 per point of Requesting Lord's Hate
-5 per point of Retaining Lord's Hate
Unknown to Retaining Lord, same values as if an as Enemy
Equal in Nobility to Retaining Lord, +2
Friend of the Retaining Lord, +2
Retaining Lord
+5 if retaining Lord has 16+ generous
+5 if retaining Lord has 16+ trusting
-5 if retaining Lord has 16+ Worldly
-5 if retaining Lord has 16+ Greed
-5 if retaining Lord has 16+ Lazy
Knight is:
-2 per point of his Homage to his Lord over 15
+2 per point of his Homage to his Lord under 15 but over 10
+5 per point of his Homage to his Lord under 10
Kinsman to Requesting Lord, +2
Kinsman to Retaining Lord, half modifiers Homage but for Love family
Officer, -10
-1 per skill-point over 15
Basic Knight Modifier: +1 (this keeps the basic knight of 1000 Glory at 0)
Glory: -1 / 1000 Glory
Years in service: -1 / 5 years of service
If the combined value is -10 or more, the following often applies as well:
Knight is the Retaining Lord's favorite: -10
+5 if retained knight has personality conflict with retainer (= both have 16+ trait but opposed eg Lazy 16+ vs Energetic 16+)
+5 if retained knight has different religion than retainer [ok, maybe this one should be removed for PC]
already has Loyalty towards Requesting Knight: -Loyalty
Gifts, +1 per £1 given

Morien?
Cornelius?
Anyone else?

fg,
Thijs

I love you guys. Have some Glory.


T.

-1 per skill-point over 15


This was a bit more involved in the earlier suggestion:

Skilled Household Knight: -1 per point of highest skill over 15 until 20, thereafter -3 per point in excess of 20. -2 per point of other skill in excess of 20. (This comes down to -5 for skill 20 knight, close enough to what I had planned previously.)

Unskilled Household Knight: +1 per point of highest skill under 15.

I guess you could keep it simple and say:
Highest skill: -1 for each point over 15, +1 for each point under 15.

If the combined value is -10 or more, the following often applies as well:
Knight is the Retaining Lord's favorite: -10
+5 if retained knight has personality conflict with retainer (= both have 16+ trait but opposed eg Lazy 16+ vs Energetic 16+)
+5 if retained knight has different religion than retainer [ok, maybe this one should be removed for PC]
already has Loyalty towards Requesting Knight: -Loyalty

Not sure what you mean when the combined value is -10.
So the other modifiers only apply when the chance of getting the knight as requesting lord is already far below 0?
Then also why would the loyalty towards the requesting lord of the knight play a factor in this?

-1 per skill-point over 15


This was a bit more involved in the earlier suggestion:

Skilled Household Knight: -1 per point of highest skill over 15 until 20, thereafter -3 per point in excess of 20. -2 per point of other skill in excess of 20. (This comes down to -5 for skill 20 knight, close enough to what I had planned previously.)

Unskilled Household Knight: +1 per point of highest skill under 15.

I guess you could keep it simple and say:
Highest skill: -1 for each point over 15, +1 for each point under 15.


Glad we agree a simpler version is needed. Often simple NPC is only known by highest skill, so yeah, I can life with that.

-1 per skill-point over 15


This was a bit more involved in the earlier suggestion:

Skilled Household Knight: -1 per point of highest skill over 15 until 20, thereafter -3 per point in excess of 20. -2 per point of other skill in excess of 20. (This comes down to -5 for skill 20 knight, close enough to what I had planned previously.)

Unskilled Household Knight: +1 per point of highest skill under 15.

I guess you could keep it simple and say:
Highest skill: -1 for each point over 15, +1 for each point under 15.


Glad we agree a simpler version is needed. Often simple NPC is only known by highest skill, so yeah, I can life with that.


You're right, no need to keep the requirement.

If the combined value is -10 or more, the following often applies as well:
Knight is the Retaining Lord's favorite: -10
+5 if retained knight has personality conflict with retainer (= both have 16+ trait but opposed eg Lazy 16+ vs Energetic 16+)
+5 if retained knight has different religion than retainer [ok, maybe this one should be removed for PC]
already has Loyalty towards Requesting Knight: -Loyalty

Not sure what you mean when the combined value is -10.
So the other modifiers only apply when the chance of getting the knight as requesting lord is already far below 0?
Then also why would the loyalty towards the requesting lord of the knight play a factor in this?


I was wondering the last point too.

Knight being moved should not yet have loyalty towards requesting lord at this point.

Personally I would give positive modifier for Requesting Lords loyalty towards Retaining Lord (+1 per point over 15), as better vassals should be favored here.

If the combined value is -10 or more, the following often applies as well:
Knight is the Retaining Lord's favorite: -10
+5 if retained knight has personality conflict with retainer (= both have 16+ trait but opposed eg Lazy 16+ vs Energetic 16+)
+5 if retained knight has different religion than retainer [ok, maybe this one should be removed for PC]
already has Loyalty towards Requesting Knight: -Loyalty

Not sure what you mean when the combined value is -10.
So the other modifiers only apply when the chance of getting the knight as requesting lord is already far below 0?
Then also why would the loyalty towards the requesting lord of the knight play a factor in this?


I was wondering the last point too.

Knight being moved should not yet have loyalty towards requesting lord at this point.

Personally I would give positive modifier for Requesting Lords loyalty towards Retaining Lord (+1 per point over 15), as better vassals should be favored here.


It's possible for a knight to have a loyalty towards another (Loyalty companions etc). But you're right, this is not of importance for the retaining lord.
You mean to replace:
Requesting Lord:
Vassal of Retaining Lord, +1 per 5 points of "Loyal to Vassals" of Retaining Lord
with
Requesting Lord:
Vassal of Retaining Lord, +1 per point over 15 of "Loyal to Vassals" of Retaining Lord
??

fg,
Thijs

If the combined value is -10 or more, the following often applies as well:
Knight is the Retaining Lord's favorite: -10


That was in my earlier suggestion with the Knight's Skills, Glory and length of service being calculated together, and if that value was -10, then the knight would likely be the Lord's favorite as well and boost the modifier to -20 or more as per Favorite in Greg's original modifiers.

In short, the idea was that a skilled, glorious, long-served knight would be the Lord's favorite and hence much much harder to detach from his service than a guy who does not quite fulfill all those criteria.

You mean to replace:
Requesting Lord:
Vassal of Retaining Lord, +1 per 5 points of "Loyal to Vassals" of Retaining Lord
with
Requesting Lord:
Vassal of Retaining Lord, +1 per point over 15 of "Loyal to Vassals" of Retaining Lord
??

fg,
Thijs


No.

My meaning is the loyalty modifier should count BOTH ways, lords loyalty to his vassal AND vassals loyalty back toward his lord (but only when hes famous for that at 15+).

If the combined value is -10 or more, the following often applies as well:
Knight is the Retaining Lord's favorite: -10


That was in my earlier suggestion with the Knight's Skills, Glory and length of service being calculated together, and if that value was -10, then the knight would likely be the Lord's favorite as well and boost the modifier to -20 or more as per Favorite in Greg's original modifiers.

In short, the idea was that a skilled, glorious, long-served knight would be the Lord's favorite and hence much much harder to detach from his service than a guy who does not quite fulfill all those criteria.

Ah with this explanation it makes sense. And I agree with it. The values are a good indication of a favorite.