Greetings,

The old Savage Mountain supplement states that to figure out the total number of manors in an area one should multipy the number of knights of the area by two. This would mean that Cameliard has about 200 manors.

I am wondering about what this figure implies, if correct. Is this true only for Cambria or for any part of Britain? Should I assume that a very large number of knights have more than one manor or that a few very wealthy noblemen controls a very large number of manors (manors without knights even).

Does anyone have a suggestion?

Thank you.

Seriously folks, why would there be twice as many manors as knights? Would the manors supporting the castles of the lord and his bannerettes be enough to explain this?

The old Savage Mountain supplement states that to figure out the total number of manors in an area one should multipy the number of knights of the area by two. This would mean that Cameliard has about 200 manors.

I am wondering about what this figure implies, if correct. Is this true only for Cambria or for any part of Britain? Should I assume that a very large number of knights have more than one manor or that a few very wealthy noblemen controls a very large number of manors (manors without knights even).



Lords have huge expenses, the largest of which is the soldiery to garrison castles and cities. Sure, a ?6 manor can support 6 men at arms, and I need 10 to minimally defend the smallest fort possible, and that officer gets paid extra so there's 2 manors per fort, as long as you are willing to leave everything at home undefended for your 60 days of service.

Here's an excerpt from something I am working on:

Typical Banneret
Defined: 9 manors and a town; an area of about x size
Rich Knight
7 knights, 15 foot;

Banneret?s Economy
The Typical Banneret?s sources of income are:
2 demense Manor @?8 each = 16
4 other Manors @?6 each = 24
3 enfoeffed manors @?2 each = 6
1 town @?1 (tallage) = 1
Total Income: ?47

Expenses: ?45
Rich Knight status @?10 = 10
Professionals: ?6 (example: Herald, Physician, Chaplain, Italian Cook)
3 Vassal Knights @?0
3 Household Knights @?4 each = 12
15 foot men, 1 leader = ?17

======

Now, when it comes to supporting a county-sized bureaucracy, and army, the diplomatic gifts, costs to maintain castles.
Well, x2 the number of knights seems to come out right.

--Greg

Thank you for your kind and illuminating answer. It does clarify things.

Best,

Peter

WOW..... Pendragon basically Rocks.... Thanks G-man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Steve-0 Your the coolest! :)

2 demense Manor @£8 each = 16
4 other Manors @£6 each = 24


I just noticed this. Demesne Manors generate £8 on average? What is the difference between the "demesne manors" and the "other manors" in the example above?

I am curious, as several player knights recently became bannerets. Also of interest is the fact that enfeoffed manors are said to provide £2 to the banneret. Aren't they generating just enough to support a knight, thus not really generating any significant income for the lord?

2 demense Manor @£8 each = 16
4 other Manors @£6 each = 24


I just noticed this. Demesne Manors generate £8 on average? What is the difference between the "demesne manors" and the "other manors" in the example above?

I am curious, as several player knights recently became bannerets. Also of interest is the fact that enfeoffed manors are said to provide £2 to the banneret. Aren't they generating just enough to support a knight, thus not really generating any significant income for the lord?


I'm in an identical situation - one player knight has just become a banneret, and I imagine the rest will follow soon (especially as we're about to start the anarchy period and they can begin enfeoffing the demesne manors they've acquired via marriage).

I think the £2 from an enfeoffed manor represents that the vassal knight doesn't have a wife to support, which normally would account for £2 (with £2 for the knight and the other £2 going somewhere I can't remember). Of course, that does then raise the question of whether or not that 'extra' income will go if the vassal knight does wed.

Peter and Kath - one possibility is that Greg is accounting from the perspective of a nobleman here, rather than a knight; so there may be £2-worth of various "Liege's Portions" included that don't feature in the previous income breakdowns for a manor (which are accounted from a knightly perspective).

Unfortunately that interpretation works for the demesne and enfeoffed manors in the example, but it breaks down for the ordinary manors - under my interpretation they should be worth £8 to the banneret (same as the enfeoffed manors) permitting him to clear £2 after paying maintenance for himself and the three household knights who are required to discharge the feudal obligations on these lands.

Regards
Luke

Here's how it works:

Each manor generates £6 worth of usable income.
There's more income that goes to the church and the tenant-in-chief (the high noble that the knight or bannerette holds the land from), and there are also additional expenses for the knight's household and staff - all of which are handled in the background.

For each group of demesne manors, the holder of the land must supply one knight.
For each non-demesne manor, the holder of the land must supply one knight.

So, you have an estate described as 3 demesne manors and 3 enfeoffed manors. You must supply 4 knights, one of which is yourself.

Greg's posted something which lists demesne manors at £8. I think that comes from the "money you don't see" part of the manor book. It's a £2 bonus that goes to the lord at the top of the feudal food chain, the tenants-in-chief (barons and higher, up to kings) - normal knights and bannerettes should ignore that.
It may be that Greg is allowing manors given in demesne to be exempt from that £2 and so the holder keeps it as bonus income. Personally, I'd continue ignoring it for now till we say the Book of Lords *wink*

I will go on record as agreeing with the short form of Darren's insight.



I think that comes from the "money you don't see" part of the manor book. It's a £2 bonus that goes to the lord at the top of the feudal food chain, the tenants-in-chief (barons and higher, up to kings)


That's correct. It's a subtlety to ignore until you can see the whole picture.



It may be that Greg is allowing manors given in demesne to be exempt from that £2 and so the holder keeps it as bonus income.


Although "bonus" in this case means "pays for the footmen."



Personally, I'd continue ignoring it for now till we say the Book of Lords *wink*


Actually called, today, KAP Book of SEIGNEURS. :)
Major sections:
Nobles of the Sword (High Nobles)
Nobles of the Robe (Appointments and Offices)
Nobles of the Church (Bishop Peers)
Nobles of the Cities (Equites and Senators)
Overview of Britain (to start, Britain has a population of two million in 530)

I have no idea when this might be ready.

--Greg

Actually called, today, KAP Book of SEIGNEURS. :)
Major sections:
Nobles of the Sword (High Nobles)
Nobles of the Robe (Appointments and Offices)
Nobles of the Church (Bishop Peers)
Nobles of the Cities (Equites and Senators)
Overview of Britain (to start, Britain has a population of two million in 530)

I have no idea when this might be ready.

--Greg



I can't wait............

That contents list looks awesome! Appointments, the church, cities *and* feudal lord - in a word, wow.

Actually called, today, KAP Book of SEIGNEURS. :)
Major sections:
Nobles of the Sword (High Nobles)
Nobles of the Robe (Appointments and Offices)
Nobles of the Church (Bishop Peers)
Nobles of the Cities (Equites and Senators)
Overview of Britain (to start, Britain has a population of two million in 530)

I have no idea when this might be ready.

--Greg



Let me add another voice saying I'd love to see this.

Let me add another voice saying I'd love to see this.


dito!