Based on the discussion of household knights changing lords I was wondering what kind of oath they swear.
Does he swear loyalty to one lord and if the lord dies does this transfer the loyalty to the heir?

I would say it does not. So when a lord dies his household knights are immediately released of their obligations and the heir may appoint new knights if he wishes.

Anyone has thoughts about it?

Thats how we have played it too, the oath is personal and heir is not obliged to do anything. Although, if the interest is mutual, continuing for the next generation would be likely, especially with high loyalty passions.

I would assume the transfer usually happens. Especially if the household knight has served a long time. It would be someone they know because they were trained by him.

I think that whilst it would generally be expected that Knights would usually transfer their oath of loyalty to the successor, it may also be "customary" to allow the Knights the option to bow out with honour if they so wish - generally with the expectation that they would stay loyal.

In some circumstances I would see some good opportunity for some intrigue and court politics to come into play especially if some of the Knights in question are key players in the region :) .


Saggy

Agreed; the oath (as medieval oaths in general) are personal and hence the relationship is dissolved at the death of the Lord.

However, I also agree that the Heir would often try to retain these experienced men, who have been such loyal men for his father. I also would allow, if the Heir hasn't been particularly bratty, bonuses for the loyalty of the retained knights if they were Famously Loyal to the father. But if there is friction between the hhk and the heir, then the hhk is under no obligation to stay, nor the heir under any obligation to retain the knight.

I think it would also reflect well on the Heir to honor the men who were loyal to his father by offering them a household knight place, if possible.

Based on the discussion of household knights changing lords I was wondering what kind of oath they swear.
Does he swear loyalty to one lord and if the lord dies does this transfer the loyalty to the heir?
I would say it does not. So when a lord dies his household knights are immediately released of their obligations and the heir may appoint new knights if he wishes.
Anyone has thoughts about it?

I come in on the side of what's been said.
Homage is personal
Frankly, ALL LOYALTY IS PERSONAL
The vassals, whether household knights or counts, must all come to the new lord and swear it all over again
Historically, great lords often (and I mean often) would withhold their homage and not support the new king, for instance, if they disagreed with his style or his intentions or his methods or rule. They would use the opportunity to make the new lord give out some presents to tempt them in. If enough of them refused, they could join together and rebel and put their own favorite lord in!
Household knights and the vassal knights of a lord might try this too, though their chances of success are much lower.
Most of them would swear homage though, because this is their home and their friends and their family, and if they didn't swear in they would likely be cast out. Unless they were notable enough to have other lords bidding for them, it would be a real step down to be a landless, lordless free lance.

Slightly off topic, but related, suppose a household knight marries an heiress who's father received his estates from a different lord. Who does the knight own loyalty to? His original lord? The overlord of the newly acquired manor? Both?

an heiress who's father received his estates from a different lord.


The manor is held from a different lord, hence homage for that manor would be sworn to that different lord; the previous lord has no claim in the manor.

In our campaign, the household knight would have to be released from his earlier obligation before the different lord would allow such a marriage. Of course, that doesn't mean that the former household knight could not feel loyalty towards his previous lord, too, but his duty would be towards the new, different lord.

Slightly off topic, but related, suppose a household knight marries an heiress who's father received his estates from a different lord. Who does the knight own loyalty to? His original lord? The overlord of the newly acquired manor? Both?


The loyalty is owed to whom ever pays for the living of the knight or grants him land to provide for himself.

Being vassal knight > being household knight, so the loyalty should shift to the liege of his recently acquired manor - unless his previous lord can come up with very good reason to nix this, and the marriage. Which would be quite rude of course.

Practically the only way knight can have multiple loyalty (lord) passions is they have more than one manor held under different lieges (which has a tendency of making life interesting).

Slightly off topic,

Please always start a new thread when you change topics
It really, really helps when trying to find a thread again


but related, suppose a household knight marries an heiress who's father received his estates from a different lord. Who does the knight own loyalty to? His original lord? The overlord of the newly acquired manor? Both?

Both
However, he can only pay homage to one lord
one
Generally that is the more powerful one
A legal ceremony exists wherein a lord can be relieved of his homage, and transfer it to a new lord
He will still owe Fealty to his old lord

Shameless, plug: there's a lot about Loyalty, including two new Passions: Homage and Fealty in the new Book of the Estate. The subject is treated at some length, and rules are provided for converting Loyalty to these new passions.

Best,


T.

Thank you Taliesin

I had just assumed everyone has that already!
What page is that on?



Shameless, plug: there's a lot about Loyalty, including two new Passions: Homage and Fealty in the new Book of the Estate. The subject is treated at some length, and rules are provided for converting Loyalty to these new passions.