Hi guys,

Has anyone ever found a good way of identifying the "other lineage men" PKs roll during character creation?

I mean, who are these guys exactly, if they're not knights? Older esquires, bastard brothers, etc?

Any good ideas around?

Given that the rulebook describes them as generally unskilled in fighting, I think most of them would be (rich) farmers and merchants and other commoners. Cousins a couple of times removed and people like that. The top tier ones would be esquires and the like, who actually have had training as a knight but couldn't afford the expense of becoming a knight. Although they might be a bit rusty after a decade of doing something else, like being a manorial officer: steward, reeve, etc.

Personally, as a GM, I have found the Family Knights and Other Lineage Men a bit troublesome. Why? Because it means a few NPCs more per PC to keep track of and I am lazy! Also, the players have a distinct incentive in knowing what the Family Knights especially are up to, so they tend to come up more in play itself. Which can be fine in and of itself, as hooks, but when everyone tries to see what they can do for this cousin or that, it leaves precious little time for anything else.

So what is your solution in your game then?

Do you take them out from character creation altogether, trim the PK's family to his siblings and direct uncles and aunts, or use something else?

I would be very interested in knowing whate other people do :)

I think the players still roll them, but the other lineage men are unlikely to come up. Similarly, while those family knights do appear in game from time to time, they are often already attached to distant courts or are wandering mercenary knights, and difficult to get hold of on a short notice. The PKs are much more likely to turn to their neighbors for quick help, which is the way I prefer it. Naturally, if there is a big enough an issue, then it might make sense to summon all the family knights, but that would need to be a blood vendetta type of issue, like killing/raping/kidnapping a family member. And clearly require the help of the whole family to get justice.

Now, in the olden days of Anarchy, things would have been slightly different. But then again, those family knights start dying like flies if PKs drag them to fight every Saxon raid. :P

Has anyone ever found a good way of identifying the "other lineage men" PKs roll during character creation?
I mean, who are these guys exactly, if they're not knights? Older esquires, bastard brothers, etc?
Any good ideas around?

I've never done a decent job to define these guys
It's planned for the umpteenth supplement that I have not yet written
Basically, they are esquires, mercenaries and monks

It is worth noting that the extended family is not likely to be farmers. See http://www.gspendragon.com/family1.html For details. In my game, these extended family are likely to be a source pool for entourage members. If a family member is chosen over a professional for the entourage The character in question starts with the loyalty of 15 instead of 10 . In my game I also make use of relationship charts which I will be sending Greg to do with as he pleases when I submit my ideas for the book of romance and relationships Family members use the familial love relationship pattern instead of the friendship relationship pattern meaning you can get more out of them, but have to give them more.

Secondly, my research into submitting a book of magic to Greg has led me to create an educated person system for pendragon ( One of the difficulties with creating magicians in pendragon is that magician is not a profession but rather a set of skills the educated class would learn in addition to their trade.) So I include options for my players to use lineage men as educated folk. This includes: Physicians and doctors all sorts, writers, artists, guilds men, clerics of all sorts (meaning religiously trained, but not necessarily holy folk; not a cleric in the dungeons and dragons sense)Lawyers And musicians. This is particular true when we've reached the second generation toward the end of the anarchy phase when Oxford is established and I give the players the option of paying for education for these characters.

I also tend to allow my players the option of political intrigue instead of the adventure in Britain aspect of the game. In this sense lineages men can often find their way into positions of low esteem but high access. The exciting part for the player is knowing that they can try to exploit their family members position (as a butler or other entourage member for someone of political value) but in doing so the family member may choose The employer over the family, or if they do side with the family and are caught they may be put on trial .

Finally, if someone is super insistent I allow for yeoman farmers but they are very much toeing the line of respectability and nobility These are usually chosen by people trying to ignore the part about lineage men not being good at combat. Likewise, I allow my players to recruit. The extended family as sergeants and men and arms but they must always recruit a young family member (skill at: 5 +1d6) and if That character dies by vain misadventure rather than by duty for the player’s sake; the direct relations of that character suffer A one point reduction in love family for the player character.

It is worth noting that the extended family is not likely to be farmers. See http://www.gspendragon.com/family1.html For details.


I thought I had read that somewhere. Thanks for the reminder. However, I firmly believe that there is a huge societal difference between 485 and 565. The society is much more simple in 485 than it is in 565. For example esquires and merchants and entourages are all more common and varied.

As for the lineage men, if they are all esquires and mercenaries, this is in DIRECT contradiction of what it says in the rulebook: "They are never well armed, and are generally unskilled at fighting,".
That is NOT how I would describe career soldiers and trained-as-knights. Even yeoman farmers are fighting men. Now, if the lineage men are explicitly combat-trained, it should say so in the rulebook instead of the opposite. Errata?

Note that I don't disagree with the way you play the lineage men, Sir Cripple. I probably would have done the same from the get-go, if I had realized to do that, making them the 'go to' guys for entourage members and so forth.

Non-combatant lineage men are also likely to be clergy in one form or another (monks, priests, druids). This would be especially true for the higher nobility. Having an 'in' with a nearby monastery could be quite useful...

NT

It is worth noting that the extended family is not likely to be farmers. See http://www.gspendragon.com/family1.html For details.


I firmly believe that there is a huge societal difference between 485 and 565. The society is much more simple in 485 than it is in 565. For example esquires and merchants and entourages are all more common and varied.

As for the lineage men, if they are all esquires and mercenaries, this is in DIRECT contradiction of what it says in the rulebook: "They are never well armed, and are generally unskilled at fighting,".

Note that I don't disagree with the way you play the lineage men, Sir Cripple. I probably would have done the same from the get-go, if I had realized to do that, making them the 'go to' guys for entourage members and so forth.


That was the tough part for me as well, how I managed to ignore that was by saying “without the player knight’s intervention.” I guess my view on the subject is that the player is the wealthy head of the family and that if he offers a job to a family member(And the training and equipment) That they would jump at the chance, to earn a living for themselves. That being said, I have no idea what they’re doing before the player finds of the job. I am very careful to ensure that the player does not spend all his lineage men at arms .

I agree with you if that the social differences between the early phase and the late phase are extreme. I have more research to do on merchants and guilds for my educated person system.

Hi guys,

Has anyone ever found a good way of identifying the "other lineage men" PKs roll during character creation?

I mean, who are these guys exactly, if they're not knights? Older esquires, bastard brothers, etc?

Any good ideas around?

As Greg Said
I've never done a decent job to define these guys
It's planned for the umpteenth supplement that I have not yet written
Basically, they are esquires, mercenaries and monks

I simply Allow the pc's to use them as any or all of the following Skilled Craftsmen ie a Black Smith, Farmer, Rich Merchant and a Christion Monk for thier villiage as an example, Foot Soldiers, and Archers, are also good choices if they want to start building an army! This is how I Allow my players to get thier "other lineage men" in the game!