Hi guys,

In the Book of the Manor, it says that in order to have functional palisades and/or ramparts, you need 5 professional soldiers manning them.

Now, from what I understand, 5 soldiers equals 5£ worth of salary every year plus the 1/2£ minimum of maintenance costs for your fortifications every year. It seems like a pretty steep expense, especially since every manor has a levy of 40+ peasants who could potentially take turns at manning the walls for free. Isn't it what militias and city watches did back in those days?

Sure, they won't be as good as professional soldiers, but could that work? Or maybe you did differently in your games?

Hi

It is a matter of leadership
BoESTATE clarifies the matter

Each professional combatant can cover about
a hundred feet of wall. They will command, inspire
and otherwise lead the commoners who are pushing
down ladders, dropping rocks, pouring hot liquids
or otherwise doing the best they can with the hoes,
shovels and scythes that make up their pitiful armament.


Hi guys,

In the Book of the Manor, it says that in order to have functional palisades and/or ramparts, you need 5 professional soldiers manning them.

Now, from what I understand, 5 soldiers equals 5£ worth of salary every year plus the 1/2£ minimum of maintenance costs for your fortifications every year. It seems like a pretty steep expense, especially since every manor has a levy of 40+ peasants who could potentially take turns at manning the walls for free. Isn't it what militias and city watches did back in those days?

Sure, they won't be as good as professional soldiers, but could that work? Or maybe you did differently in your games?

Right, so if one of my player wants to have palisades and ramparts built, he will then need to fork out the extra 5£ every year for soldiers then.

Or how would you mechanically simulate the absence of said soldiers? Reduce the DV? House rule that if attacked, after a given time, the enemy wins the siege, etc...

Thanks again Greg :)

Without a garrison the fortifications are non-functional so reduce the DV to zero. If the knight is in residence then you can move straight to a combat scene inside the manor house if you want it to be a big deal for the year or resolve the incident as a raid on an unfortified manor per the rules in BotM/BotE.

Fortifications are intended to be too expensive for most knights - if you only hold a manor or two then you need additional income plus a high expectation of being raided (ie be a robber knight in all likelihood) for them to be worth the expense.

Regards
Luke

Right, thanks for the help on that.

I could imagine having a troup of 5 friendly knights stopping for a night in a manor, when suddenly saxon raiders assault the manor eh eh...

It is a bit cheaper than that, since the manor usually comes with two soldiers and one knight. So if the knight is home, all it takes is two extra soldiers or £2 / year. If the knight in question has two manors, he won't even need to 'pay' for those two extra soldiers. Just bring them over from the second manor. That of course leaves the second manor even more open, but there is probably a household knight there to look after the villagers. Or if the PC is adventuring, just bring that household knight to the main manor and you are set!

Not to mention that if you have two manors, you probably have some extra money from that, if you follow the normal economic system of £4 / knight + £2 for wife/steward. The other manor if it is in the same neighborhood/county will not need a separate steward, so you will save that other £2 from the manor which would pay for 2 extra footsoldiers without needing to bring them over. (This is different in Book of Estate, but since I don't have it, I decline to comment on that.)

It is a bit cheaper than that, since the manor usually comes with two soldiers and one knight. So if the knight is home, all it takes is two extra soldiers or £2 / year.


Oh cool, I must have missed that, where exactly does it says that a manor comes with two soldiers. Book of the Manor?

Thanks again guys

Oh cool, I must have missed that, where exactly does it says that a manor comes with two soldiers. Book of the Manor?


I -thought- it said so somewhere in the main rulebook, but I can't find the entry despite looking. It might be that I picked it up from Lordly Domains, where the minimum garrison for the manorial hall is knight + 2 footmen (p. 22), and the rules therein say that you can have up to 3 footmen in your manor at no extra cost (p. 20). I am pretty sure we had used the rule of 1 knight + 2 footmen as the standard even before, though, so I am wondering where I picked that up from.

I'll check BotM once I get home, although I am sure I didn't pick it up from there, as I had GMed Pendragon for years before BotM came out.

Right,

it is true I remember something about that now, must have been from Lordly Domains as you said. I haven't really touched this book in years though, its economic rules were so confusing I gave up on it quickly. It had some nice bits about hunting and falconry though.

However, since we're using the 5.1 rules now, it would be interesting to know what you guys think about adding those 2 soldiers as default to every manor. I'd be tempted to roll with it, thus leaving every vassal with palisades & ramparts needing to fork out for 2 extra soldiers every year. Makes sense.

OR

Players just go with levy as watch, but when it comes to full attacks, the DV is reduced, as those men are not as able.

What do you think?

I'd say it depends a lot on what kind of a campaign feel you wish.

Do you want the PKs to be mini-warlords of the Dark Ages, with their own palisaded halls and a posse of spear-carriers? In that case, I'd be tempted to go the Savage Mountains way, and have one 1/4th of the Levy as semi-professional warriors, free yeoman farmer kind of people, that the PKs can actually gather to a fight to defend their halls and to raid Saxons back. Many of these would be the 'other lineage men' mentioned in another thread. And of course, each death is a tragedy, as those skills are not gained in an instant.

Or do you want the PKs to be reliant on the armies of the Earl for their protection, their manors unfortified and next to helpless against a Saxon raid? Where a raid, if it happens, will wreck major damage on the peasantry and drag many of them into cruel slavery? Then you want to limit the amount of soldiers that the PKs have, even down to 0, so that the fortifications and soldiery is a province of higher lords.

The 2 footsoldiers per manor as a side benefit would be the middle road, in my opinion. Gives you a couple of guys who can fight to help defend the manor against Saxons, but not enough to constitute a warband of your own, unless you join up with a few other PKs.

Very interesting answers, good sir :)

I know for sure one or two of my players will want to save up money and buy fortifications soon enough, so I'll go the middle way and say they have 2 soldiers already , and need 2 more to have effective defenses.

That's fair me thinks. Your first idea, I'll keep for a wilder, darker campaign someday :)

Oh cool, I must have missed that, where exactly does it says that a manor comes with two soldiers. Book of the Manor?


I -thought- it said so somewhere in the main rulebook, but I can't find the entry despite looking. It might be that I picked it up from Lordly Domains, where the minimum garrison for the manorial hall is knight + 2 footmen (p. 22), and the rules therein say that you can have up to 3 footmen in your manor at no extra cost (p. 20). I am pretty sure we had used the rule of 1 knight + 2 footmen as the standard even before, though, so I am wondering where I picked that up from.

I'll check BotM once I get home, although I am sure I didn't pick it up from there, as I had GMed Pendragon for years before BotM came out.


book of estate

The Book of the Entourage states on p. 7, in the Overview of a Manorial Household section, that a manorial entourage includes two foot soldiers. The slightly newer Book of the Estate seems to contradict this on p. 38 where it gives the breakdown of the household for a £10 Manor — there are no foot soldiers provided. I pointed this out to Greg when Estate was in production. He responded that Estate was intended for the Early Phase of the Campaign. The example in Entourage was intended for later phases, during Arthur's reign.

Hope that helps.


T.

Taliesin, thank you for clarifying that.

So for a manor in the Early Phase, using the Book of the Estate, would the following work for a manor with some cash but not enough to afford additional troops? The idea is a defense that will deter or slow a raiding band looking for a quick snatch-and-grab, not stop a determined assault.

The PK buys a Tile Roof for the manor hall, Ditch and Rampart, Gate, and simple Gateworks. Cost is 7L.

The key is that page 80 of Book of the Estate says re the Ditch and Rampart: “Assault Gear is still required to attack it, used to fill in the ditch and go over the rampart.” Since raiders don’t usually carry ladders and bundles of wood, they have to take an hour or two and build them. This gives the PK’s wife/steward time to get not only the commoners and their animals but also a few of the most portable/valuable possessions from the outlying buildings (stable, granary, smithy, etc.) and pile them all into the hall. In the meantime the PK can try to bluff the attackers about how many defenders he has or otherwise try to convince them to leave, all the while hoping that his lord and/or friendly neighbors notice the goings-on and are riding to his rescue.

When the ladders are done and the attackers storm the rampart, that defense is untenable (any PK who tries to hold the rampart will be outflanked) and the PK falls back to the manor hall. The attackers now have the manor’s granary, barn, commoners' homes, etc. but the best/most mobile loot is inside the hall. The PK has a solid defensive position but his thatched-roof outbuildings can be torched in minutes (burning the hall would take more time though – remember the tile roof). So a fight may begin, but so may negotiations, with threat and counter-threat and both sides guessing how long until help arrives.

Does this make sense?

As far as I know, the Ditch & Rampart & Palisade protect the hall and its outbuildings (stables, etc), not the whole village. It is intended for the peasants to run into with their valuables and some of the livestock, not to protect every hut in the village. At least, that is how it is described in the Book of the Manor.

Oh I agree. If you can't hold the Ditch and Rampart because you don't have the troops and when the assault comes fall back and make your true stand in the hall, the enemy takes your manor's outbuildings (stables, etc.).

My thought was that the Ditch/Rampart might still have value by forcing the raiders to stop, build ladders, and deploy for assault, giving time for help to come or the raiders to seek easier prey.

As far as I know, the Ditch & Rampart & Palisade protect the hall and its outbuildings (stables, etc), not the whole village. It is intended for the peasants to run into with their valuables and some of the livestock, not to protect every hut in the village. At least, that is how it is described in the Book of the Manor.

That is correct
The village is not protected, just the manorial hall and the lord's major outbuildings