Hi all,

I started tinkering with an old project to bring a bit more life to the NPC wives and to easily roll up potential wife candidates for the PKs to take an interest in.

I decided not to use the traits of Pendragon for this, as as good as they are, I wanted something a bit more easily grasped; after all, these ladies were not intended to be full characters, but NPCs with a bit more life in them than just the name. So I ended up identifying five 'behaviors' that would allow me to rather easily see how these ladies would interact with the PKs and their husbands:

Submissiveness: How much they defer to men in general and to their husbands in particular. Not exactly the same as Modest-Proud, but carries some hints of that.

Kindness: How kind/cruel they are. Again, not exactly Merciful/Cruel, more like Forgiving+Generosity+Merciful / Vengeful+Selfish+Cruel.

Chasteness: Pretty obvious. How interested they are in sex/flirting. Closely parallels Chaste/Lustful.

Frugality: How careful they are with spending money. Not exactly the same as Generous/Selfish, although that is a close parallel. (EDIT: Actually, after thinking about this, it is probably closer to Temperate - Indulgent as it is about saving money by living simply or spending money by living in a high style.)

Smarts: How smart they are. Knights might not need an IQ stat, but the NPC women do! :)

The behavioral types are 'calibrated' for Christian ladies (modifiers for Pagans: +2 Submissiveness, +1 Kindness, +2 Chasteness, +1 Frugality). Fertility is another 'stat' the wife NPCs have, it is rolled separately, but is influenced by Chasteness. Another 'stat' is Childbirth, which is basically a chance for how robust the woman is in the rigors of childbirth. Some of them have a better chance of survival, while some are even more likely to die than the draconian tables already in use.

The behaviors also modify skills, mainly Stewardship, but also Chirurgery and First Aid (the three skills that the wife characters mostly use in game). Those skills start at 10 (except stewardship is 2+1d6 for non-eldest daughters of vassal knights, and all unlanded knight's daughters, who are more likely to see a career as a lady's maid and hence study stuff like courtesy and play), and are modified by (age-18) as well. Since age is 1d6+15 (max 21), this will not cause a problem in too high skill levels. Widows would need to be tweaked by the GM.

1. Submissiveness
1d20
1-3 Downright Timid about giving her own opinion (-2 Stewardship (peasants walk all over her))
5-10 Submissive, will give an opinion if explicitly asked for
11-14 Defers to the husband, but has her own opinions, too
15-17 Equal, will give her opinion but is willing to be persuaded otherwise (+1 Stewardship)
18 or more Domineering, she knows better than the husband (+2 Stewardship (takes charge!) )

2. Kindness
1d20
1-3 Saintly, will help anyone in need (+2 to Concern (my commoners) - roll, -2 to Stewardship (believes every sob story), +3 First Aid and Chirurgery)
4-7 Kindhearted, will try to help, within her means (+1 to Concern -roll, +1 First Aid and Chirurgery)
8-16 Normal, might help, might not
17-19 Hardhearted, not inclined to help nor forgive (-1 to Concern -roll, +1 Stewardship (no excuses!), -1 First Aid and Chirurgery)
20 or more Cruel, will go out of her way to inflict misery (-2 to Concern (my commoners), -2 to Stewardship ('clumsy', surly peasants), -3 First Aid and Chirurgery)

3. Chasteness
1d20
1-3 Frigid (-2 Fertility, -4 to Fertility if Domineering or no roll if the husband caves in!)
4-7 Chaste (-1 to Fertility, dislikes sex)
8-16 Normal
17-19 Hot-blooded, inclined towards amorous pursuits (+1 Fertility, but chance of Adultery...)
20 or more Shameless, enjoys flirting and even (discreet) love affairs (+2 Fertility, but high chance of Adultery...)

4. Frugality
1d20
1-3 Pennypinching (-1 Stewardship (saves in a wrong place), -1 Concern -roll, wishes to save money rather than spend it even on good investments or armor)
4-6 Careful with money (+2 Stewardship)
7-14 Normal
15-17 Careless with money (-1 Stewardship)
18 or more Wasteful, loves spending money on frivolous pursuits (-2 Stewardship, Rich living & £1/manor gifts per year or she will be unhappy)

5. Smarts
1d20 (+3 if Domineering, -3 if Timid)
1-3 Stupid (-2 Stewardship)
4-6 Slow-witted (-1 Stewardship)
7-14 Normal
15-17 Quick-witted (+1 Stewardship)
18 or more Smart (+2 Stewardship)

And since I said it was a generator... Yes, I did write it up as a program, including a random name, father's class and dowry. I hope to make it available online shortly, too.

Some examples with post-generation comments:

Name: Aelna
Father: Cerdoc , Father's class: Banneret
Daughter number: 3 , Dowry: 9
Age: 16
APP: 12
Fertility: Fertile / 1
Childbirth: Normal
Submissiveness: Submissive
Kindness: Saintly (+2 Concern)
Chasteness: Normal
Frugality: Normal
Smarts: Stupid
Skills: Stewardship - 4 , Chirurgery - 13 , First-Aid - 13

Ow. As we can see, Aelna, the 3rd daughter of a banneret, is a sweet young lady of tender 16 years. Her saintly nature would make her loved by the peasantry, but unfortunately her young age, her downright naive belief in the goodness of man, and her distinct lack of intelligence means that despite her father's best efforts, her Stewardship is still lacking (bannerets' daughters are expected to marry vassal knights, so they usually would have 10+ in Stewardship). She is quite docile woman who would not cause problems for her husband, though, and the dowry is nice, too.


Name: Rhianlyth
Father: Maelfin , Father's class: Vassal
Daughter number: 1 , Dowry: 7
Age: 18
APP: 17
Fertility: Infertile / -2
Childbirth: Narrow-hipped (increased chance of death at childbirth)
Submissiveness: Defers to husband
Kindness: Cruel (-2 Concern)
Chasteness: Chaste
Frugality: Normal
Smarts: Normal
Skills: Stewardship - 8 , Chirurgery - 7 , First-Aid - 7

This beautiful woman might seem like a good prospect. Young and beautiful and with a big dowry, what is not to like? Well, the fact that she is a downright cruel woman, who actually enjoys bullying those worse off than she is. Now, if she manages to hide that from her husband, all well and good, for apart from that, she would be an almost model wife. Sure, her Chaste means that she is not too into the whole sex thing, but everyone gets headaches now and again, right? At least it is virtually guaranteed that she is not cheating on him when he is out the whole year adventuring...


Name: Eilunlen
Father: Ongair , Father's class: Rich Vassal
Daughter number: 1 , Dowry: 19
Age: 19
APP: 10
Fertility: Normal / 2
Childbirth: Normal
Submissiveness: Submissive
Kindness: Normal
Chasteness: Shameless
Frugality: Careless with money
Smarts: Normal
Skills: Stewardship - 10 , Chirurgery - 10 , First-Aid - 10

With a dowry like that, who cares that Eilunlen is not that pretty to look at? She is not too bad a steward, either, even though she comes from a wealthy family and might be inclined to not count every penny. She also seems to like sex. A LOT. If her husband can keep her satisfied, all good and well. If not, it is almost guaranteed that sooner or later, she will be involved in a scandal. She is not a stupid woman, though, and if she marries a suitably gullible man, it can be a happy and a fruitful marriage...


Name: Ollen
Father: Maelreth , Father's class: Vassal
Daughter number: 1 , Dowry: 9
Age: 16
APP: 15
Fertility: Normal / 1
Childbirth: Wide-hipped (50% chance of survival if about to die in childbirth)
Submissiveness: Timid
Kindness: Kind-hearted (+1 Concern)
Chasteness: Hot-blooded
Frugality: Normal
Smarts: Quick-witted
Skills: Stewardship - 7 , Chirurgery - 11 , First-Aid - 11

Such, such promise from young Ollen. Pity that she is so unsure of herself, for otherwise, she would be a gem. Smart and kind, she also has passion in her soul, and would make a fine wife to an equally passionate knight. Her timidness might keep her from compromising herself even if her husband would not be to her satisfaction, but with her quick wits, she is likely to run rings around most men, if she chooses to become an adulteress.


Name: Morwen
Father: Rhodig , Father's class: Vassal
Daughter number: 3 , Dowry: 5
Age: 16
APP: 17
Fertility: Normal / 2
Childbirth: Normal
Submissiveness: Submissive
Kindness: Cruel (-2 Concern)
Chasteness: Shameless
Frugality: Wasteful
Smarts: Slow-witted
Skills: Stewardship - 0 , Chirurgery - 7 , First-Aid - 7

Morwen is riding for a fall. Cruel, shameless and wasteful, she seems to embody almost all female vices, without even having the grace to be smart enough to pull it off. She is not stupid enough to mouth off to her husband, but it is next to certain that she will be unhappy with having her wasteful ways reined in, which in turn will fuel more cruelties towards the peasants and servants, as well as make her unhappy enough to cheat on her husband. And thanks to her slow wits (and the fact that the abused servants will be more than happy to turn her in), she will get caught and dishonored. Poor Morwen.


Name: Gwynwen
Father: Gafin , Father's class: Household
Daughter number: 2 , Dowry: 0
Age: 20
APP: 17
Fertility: Normal / 0
Childbirth: Normal
Submissiveness: Defers to husband
Kindness: Normal
Chasteness: Normal
Frugality: Penny-pinching
Smarts: Normal
Skills: Stewardship - 9 , Chirurgery - 10 , First-Aid - 10

Gwynwen is desperate to get married. She is almost an old maid! Alas, her father is dirt-poor as far as spending money goes, and can't afford to give her a dowry, although he has managed (probably only recently) to gain a place as a household knight. The destitution of her childhood has left her scarred as far as spending money goes: money needs to hoarded for the rainy day, not spent! Other than that, she is a perfectly ordinary, beautiful young woman, who would likely make a very acceptable lady of the manor, save for her lack of a dowry.


Name: Blodlen
Father: Agradig , Father's class: Vassal
Daughter number: 1 , Dowry: 7
Age: 16
APP: 12
Fertility: Fertile / 0
Childbirth: Normal
Submissiveness: Domineering
Kindness: Normal
Chasteness: Chaste
Frugality: Careful with money
Smarts: Smart
Skills: Stewardship - 14 , Chirurgery - 10 , First-Aid - 10

Blodlen is a smart woman... and she knows it. Even at the tender age of 16, she is already equal to many widows in the ways of managing an estate. Alas, that intelligence and skill has also made her quite unfemininely outspoken about her own opinions, and will require a firm-handed husband who will take none of her lip! Which will ensure a very unhappy marriage for them both, and while Blodlen would not sully herself with an affair, she will certainly find some other way to get back at her brute of a husband... Of course, if she happens to marry a man who doesn't mind a strong-willed wife taking charge at home, she would be a treasure and make such a man quite happy (as long as -he- makes her happy, too!).

Love it...
and perhaps it might be idea to stick with original traits (Modest,Merciful, Chaste, Generous, Prudent [=smarts]) to avoid introducing more stuff to remember (and make it compatible with previous generated NPCs).
Then use normal ratings and add the descriptor in brackets like: Modest 5 (Timid, -5 Stewardship).

fg,
Thijs

and perhaps it might be idea to stick with original traits (Modest,Merciful, Chaste, Generous, Prudent [=smarts]) to avoid introducing more stuff to remember (and make it compatible with previous generated NPCs).


The only problem, Thijs, is that they are not exactly the same. They are connected, yes, but for instance a smart character might not always be prudent. Nor would a Frugal person be necessarely Selfish, simply miserly, which is an aspect of Selfish but not all of it.

That being said, I do see where you are coming from.

I fully agree, but the same is true for Knights. Greg decided on these 20 traits and of course these are not perfect. But if we start adding 6 more, then why not 10 more, 20 more etc...
Hence I like to stick to those 20 if at all possible (and for sake of compatibility).

fg,
Thijs

True. Well, if you want it to have official 'trait' names, then use these:

Submissiveness = Modest (maybe Energetic, more in the sense of 'do it yourself if you want it done' vs. 'I hope someone will tell me what to do' rather than Laziness itself)

Kindness = Merciful, Forgiving & Generosity

Chasteness = (easy) Chaste

Frugality = Temperate (because it really is more of an asceticism vs. hedonism than Generosity vs. Selfish, and I want to avoid overlap with Kindness)

Smarts = Really dislike labelling this with with a trait. I would rather keep it as a simple catch-all for the general proficiency and mental acuity that the NPC is supposed to have.

> Submissiveness = Modest (maybe Energetic, more in the sense of 'do it yourself if you want it done' vs. 'I hope someone will tell me what to do' rather than Laziness itself)

ok, Modest sounds best (because Proud women wont do what you tell them).

> Kindness = Merciful, Forgiving & Generosity

Generosity is in Frugality/Greed
Forgiving is linked with vengeful... women are not in position to have vendettas. (potentially you could add forgiving as separate trait to see if they do carry grudges, a womans scorn..)
So Merciful.. which is about being kind to those we do not deserve it...

> Chasteness = (easy) Chaste

ok

> Frugality = Temperate (because it really is more of an asceticism vs. hedonism than Generosity vs. Selfish, and I want to avoid overlap with Kindness)

Spending money is Greed (or better use the positive traits for women).
Temperate is about consumption.

> Smarts = Really dislike labelling this with with a trait. I would rather keep it as a simple catch-all for the general proficiency and mental acuity that the NPC is supposed to have.

Prudent.. a person who thinks before acting is a smart person... as he does the prudent=smart thing.

> Kindness = Merciful, Forgiving & Generosity

Generosity is in Frugality/Greed


Disagree in part. Generosity as Charity, willingness to share, would be in Kindness. Generosity as in lavish spending would be in Frugality. Hmm. Then again, I guess you could argue that both types have high Generosity and it is the Merciful vs. Indulgent comparison that determines how that Generosity is expressed.



Forgiving is linked with vengeful... women are not in position to have vendettas. (potentially you could add forgiving as separate trait to see if they do carry grudges, a womans scorn..)


Oh, very much disagreed here! Women do carry grudges same as men, and while they might be less likely to bash someone over the head physically than the knights, they would be quite willing to get family / husband knights to do it for them. This could also be expressed in malicious gossip and whatnot.



> Frugality = Temperate (because it really is more of an asceticism vs. hedonism than Generosity vs. Selfish, and I want to avoid overlap with Kindness)

Spending money is Greed (or better use the positive traits for women).
Temperate is about consumption.


Spending money is more like Generous. Hoarding money is more closely Selfish. Spending money on luxuries for yourself is Indulgent. Saving money by skimping on luxuries is Temperate. Hence why I am coming to the conclusion that Wasteful wife would have high Generous (doesn't care about hoarding money) and Indulgent (wants fine clothes, jewelry and other luxuries).



Prudent.. a person who thinks before acting is a smart person... as he does the prudent=smart thing.


Still not fully convinced. I mean, if you are famously Prudent, you are prudent pretty much all the time, even when it would be better (i.e. smarter) to act with more haste. A Famously Prudent character is one who always wants to think things through and pick the 'safe' option.


Oh well, I think I will include a row about what I think the Pendragon Traits should approximately be for these ladies. Like high Kindness giving positive modifiers for Merciful, Forgiving and Generous, etc. Then, if you prefer to just use the Traits, you can use that 'trait bar' and ignore the behaviors.

In general I like what you've done here, but why did you scale the new personality types you came up with so that the high scores are the opposite of the trait descriptor?

If I see Submissiveness 19 in a stat block I'm thinking 'mouse' rather than 'harridan'.

Regards
Luke

In general I like what you've done here, but why did you scale the new personality types you came up with so that the high scores are the opposite of the trait descriptor?


Historical reasons, Luke. I brainstorming this by making up pairs: Timid-Domineering. And just happened to put the 'Christian' value first, and then when I started building the table, started from Timid as the first step. I did notice that there was that little dichotomy in the rolling, but you would actually not use the number you rolled for anything; you would never see 'Submissiveness 19' as a stat-block. Instead, you would see 'Submissiveness: Domineering'.

OK, added the trait 'bar'. Note that the modifiers do not exactly match the Religion modifiers re: Pagans & Christians, since this would have made it way too likely for the Pagans to be adulterers, for example, or made them all quite harridans. In short, this generator was not intended to duplicate lady character chargen, but just give the GM some easy labels to figure out how to GM the lady in question. And for the lady's personality to have some mechanistical effect, preferrably both pro and con, like a shameless wife enjoying sex -> Fertility bonus which is good, but she is also much more likely to cheat -> downside. That also means that I wished there to be some 'extremes' that you would not normally see (so often) in chargen and also breaks the usual rule of thumb that NPCs are not supposed to have Famous Traits (or only one). Having one or two strong behavioral hooks makes it easier, at least for me, to GM an NPC.

Submissiveness modifies:
- Modest: +6/+3/0/-3/-6
- Energetic: -6/-3/0/+3/+6

Kindness modifies:
- Merciful: +6/+3/0/-3/-6
- Forgiving: +6/+3/0/-3/-6
- Generous: +6/+3/0/-3/-6

Chasteness modifies:
- Chaste: +10/+6/+3/-3/-6

Frugality modifies:
- Temperate: +6/+3/0/-3/-6
- Generous: -6/-3/0/+3/+6

Smarts modifies:
- Prudent: -6/-3/0/+3/+6
- Energetic: -3/-1/0/+1/+3


Name: Eilunwedd
Father: Ofannon , Father's class: Household
Daughter number: 3 , Dowry: 7
Age: 20
APP: 11 Blond curly hair, blue eyes.
Fertility: Normal / -4
Childbirth: Normal
Submissiveness: Domineering
Kindness: Saintly (+2 Concern)
Chasteness: Frigid
Frugality: Careful with money
Smarts: Smart
Skills: Stewardship - 11 , Chirurgery - 15 , First-Aid - 15
Traits: Chaste 20 Energetic 19 Forgiving 16 Generous 13 Merciful 16 Modest 4 Temperate 13 Prudent 16

She would probably make an excellent abbess. If she makes it out of the novice phase with her low Modest; Obedience isn't one of her strong suits.


Name: Morwedd
Father: Tywydd , Father's class: Errant
Daughter number: 3 , Dowry: 5
Age: 18
APP: 15 Brown straight hair, brown eyes.
Fertility: Normal / 0
Childbirth: Normal
Submissiveness: Defers to husband
Kindness: Kind-hearted (+1 Concern)
Chasteness: Normal
Frugality: Careful with money
Smarts: Smart
Skills: Stewardship - 11 , Chirurgery - 11 , First-Aid - 11
Traits: Chaste 13 Energetic 16 Forgiving 13 Generous 10 Merciful 13 Modest 10 Temperate 13 Prudent 16

She is a bit of a jackpot as far as behavioral stats go. Kind, but not too kind. Careful with money. Mind of her own but defers to her husband. And smart. Not too bad to look at either and the dowry is not too shabby given her station. And good stewardship thanks to her behavior. She'd be a fine wife for anyone.

Great! Thank you.

I love this kind of stuff! Thanks, Morien. Have some Glory!


T.

Name: Eilunwedd
Father: Ofannon , Father's class: Household


Just one observation: if I remember correctly, Household knight is the same as Bachelor Knight, which by definition is UNmarried (your food, equipment, clothing, etc, is all provided by your Lord and you sleep in his hall; your Lord doesn't pay to support a family of your own). Therefore you have no legal heirs that come from marriage (but it's possible to have bastards that you get by banging the local tavern wench when you go to town or some handmaiden at the Lord's manor/castle). Shouldn't the system NOT allow for recognized daughters of bachelors/household knights?

Otherwise, this looks pretty cool. I may use it. Thanks!

Many household knights are unmarried. However, there are also married ones:
1) officers and such who get extra income and can afford their own families,
2) household knights whose wives are actually ladies in waiting for the Lord's wife, and get supported that way, and
3) household knights who have married into / looted some money/income and thus are able to support their families by themselves.

There are a few references in the Pendragon books about married household knights. Not the least being the 4th ed where you could be a (legitimate) son of one.

In our campaign, it has happened a few times that the PK liege lords have allowed their household knights to marry, and the wife then acts as a steward for the estate(s). This has happened since they own manors in different counties and they'd need to hire a steward anyway. Why not reward the household knight who has served loyally for a decade with his own family while at it?

Fair enough, I was just going for simplicity's sake, but the cases you mention are legitimate. They may confuse newcomers to the game, though, but that's unavoidable (the stuff in 4th edition isn't in 5th).

Any chances of having a nice pdf with the system well laid out?

Pendragon 5.0 edition, p. 109 in Winter Phase under Marriage rolls:
"Below Your Class: Use this course of action whenever
your character wants to have a wife, no matter what or
who. She is probably a handmaid to your lord’s wife, a serving
woman, an assistant seamstress to some rich merchant
woman, or the younger sister of another knight. Household
knights usually marry this way."

Emphasis mine. So there is definitely an indication that household knights may have families in the basic rulebook as well.

As for a pdf, I don't really have the requisite skills to make a real nice layout out of it. I am not an employee of Nocturnal or Greg's, just a fellow fan doing this since I enjoy the game and like thinking up ways to create new NPCs, and coding them up, for my own use and for the use of the community. Most likely result is that this program will appear online on Jesper's site like the previous knight generator and the print-out on the screen would be similar to the latest example. Assuming Jesper is free and willing to convert it into web-format.

Looks like I can't get anything right today lol. I just confirmed it's in 5.1 ed too. Thanks! It would perhaps be nice that this info was stated in the introductory material were bachelor knights are defined in the rulebook so that people don't have to rely on finding snippets spread throughout the book. They are, after all, defined as unmarried in there, if I remember correctly.

I'll eagerly wait for the software to eventually make it's way online. Thanks a bunch.

In the intro, 5.0, p. 16.

"(The word bachelor derives from
bas chevalier, or “low knight.” It has come to be associated
with unmarried men because bachelor knights
were generally not rich enough to support a wife.)"

Emphasis mine again. And don't worry about it. :)

In the intro, 5.0, p. 16.

"(The word bachelor derives from
bas chevalier, or “low knight.” It has come to be associated
with unmarried men because bachelor knights
were generally not rich enough to support a wife.)"

Emphasis mine again. And don't worry about it. :)


Yeah, I spotted that too, lol ::)

And a nice Christmas Gift from Jesper: a web application for this random wife generator.

http://enora.dk/pendragon/wife/wife1.asp

You can pick:
1. Number of candidates
2. Culture (Cymric, Roman, Saxon)
3. Religion (Christian, Pagan, Wotanist)
4. Father's class (Random, Commoner, Knight Errant, Household Knight, Vassal Knight, Rich Vassal Knight, Banneret)
5. Daughter number (i.e. is this the eldest daughter or one of her younger siblings? 1-3 or random.)

I also see that I didn't really discuss the dowries of the different father's classes and daughter numbers up front, so I will do so here. Comments on those welcome, too. I used the numbers in Book of the Manor as a starting point...

DOWRIES
Banneret Knight: 1st daughter £6d6+20 (£26 - 56), younger daughters £1d6+4 (£5-10)
(Yes, I know that Greg changed Bannerets from an inherited position into an office: imagine that this is a very wealthy vassal with 6-12 manors or so. Also, the dowry -might- be an actual manor... I am thinking a manor with a vassal knight if it is £35 - 44, and a household knight one if it is £45+.)
Rich Vassal Knight: 1st daughter £2d6+8 (£10 - 20), younger daughters £2d3 (might be a bit low?)
Vassal Knight: 1st daughter: £1d3+6 (£7-9), younger daughters £1d6
Household or Errant Knight: all daughters £1d6
Commoner: all daughters £2d6+6 (£8-18, but very little marriage glory)

I might point out that the beauty of the girl does influence the dowry: a beautiful girl might be able to attract the attentions of a suitor even without a big dowry, while an ugly girl might force the father to up the ante to get her married well. The dowry rolled is a suggestion, it doesn't mean that the PK can just pick and choose, without any RP. Certainly, even if he is a landed knight, he might have a bit of an uphill struggle to convince a Banneret to give the eldest daughter in marriage to a mere 1-manor knight... But if he is a very glorious one, well-connected politically and so forth... well, maybe then... And all this marriage game depends if there are other options available: both for the knights and for the wife candidates. And of course, fine brides would be a good way for the Count to reward his loyal knights.

Nice, very nice!

For the GM, there should be some kind of 'worth total' (fully realising this is politically incorrent) for a candidate. Basically how much effort a PC should put into this candidate (or more accurate her warden) before being allowed to marry her.
Perhaps each trait/skill etc should be expressed in a librum-worh, that can be added to her dowry. Thus creating a total worth.. [of course never perfect, but it does give a GM a quick overview of the most desirable candidates.
[Traits that are unknown should not be taking into account into worth total, but should be added to a 'secret worth total']

fg,
Thijs

Thanks, Thijs.

I'd say that the effort needed is too highly variable to be a single number. I think it is better that the GM expends some brain power to think how this wife candidate works in his/her campaign world.

The biggie would of course be the status, which would be known, in comparison with the PK. Dowry would likely be easy to suss out as well. After that, it becomes relatively easy. Is the PK trying to marry up a bit? It will take some work. Is he trying to marry up a lot? LOTS of work. Is he trying to marry within his class? A bit work. Marry down? Basically just the permission from the lord.

Things to modify the status would be mainly the appearance of the candidate (very beautiful might uplift her to a better category, very ugly might drop her down a step), the family connections of both the PK and the candidate, the Glory of the PK and potential favors already done or to be expended on this marriage alliance (both from the liegelord and from the warden). And of course the liegelord's approval. But these things are, like I said, too much dependent on the PK and the candidate in question to be fully coded.

Skills and traits would be harder to gauge in advance... After all, it is to the warden's/father's benefit to laud the good stuff and hide the bad stuff. Good intrigue rolls or maybe some courtly favors called in might shed some light to this... Also, this might be a perfect opportunity for female PCs to shine, as they might have better grapevine as to the virtues and vices of the young debutantes. Of course, strong personalities are easier to find out. A timid lady would be noted for her shyness, while a domineering one would be considered unbecomingly 'manly' in her demeanor; a very flirtatious lady might be suspected of being more inclined to do more if an opportunity were to arise...

I have had a chance to use this program for a handful of ladies so far. It was quite funny to find that one PK was looking for a 'woman who would not be afraid to say what she thinks', and boy, did he find one. It didn't matter that she was a daughter of a poor household knight and he a vassal knight; and of course the hhk father was more than happy to agree to such a match, for the asking. On the other hand, the PK managed to get some brownie points with the Earl, who didn't mind agreeing to 'reward' his old household knight with this elevation of the daughter.

In other cases, it seems that the players are looking more at the beauty of the wife, although Dowry and Stewardship skills tend to be sought after as well. In some cases, the excess attention on looks might prove troublesome for some of the PKs...

Just noticed you didnt give table for Fertility...

I agree that each man has his own preferences... but you can noticed a 'trend'.
High stewardship, dowry, status, beauty, fertile are more wanted.
As such it's relatively easy to assign a value to each trait in the tables.
The only question is: how much is a point stewardship worth in librum?

Estimate: BoM, success x1.5 income, so 6 -> 9L.
So each point in stewardship increases chances success by 5%, to gain 3L. So .15L per year, wife for 20 year, so 3L..
So each point in stewardship could be worth 3L, but wife die regretably potentially young, never know other issues, so 1/3...
So each point in stewardship is worth a librum...

And so on.

fg,
Thijs

Another very very interesting trait of a wife might be 'number of male relatives'. (D6-1?)
These male relatives can be called upon (as knights I assume) just as other family knights.
And if this number is low and they all die the wife would become heiress...

fg,
Thijs

Just noticed you didnt give table for Fertility...


There are quite a few tables in there that I didn't give out, Thijs. :P

1d20 Fertility (childbirth modifier)
1 Almost Barren (80% chance of early miscarriage (no danger to her) on all pregnant childbirth rolls; this may save her life if she would otherwise perish in labor)
2-3 Infertile (-1)
4-17 Normal (0)
18-20 Fertile (+1)

Chastity also influences the fertility modifier: a wife with a high sex drive has a positive modifier while a chaste/frigid wife has a negative one. Also modified by submissiveness: a timid wife is less likely to veer from the norm (less likely to act out her desires, so moves towards zero) while a domineering one does as her own inclinations dictate (i.e. reinforces her own trend)..

High stewardship, dowry, status, beauty, fertile are more wanted.
As such it's relatively easy to assign a value to each trait in the tables.


How do you propose to measure the exact point value of a woman's Stewardship, especially without giving her a chance to oversee a manor? We had a case in play where there was a high stewardship wife (I think 16 or 17), who nevertheless managed to fumble on two subsequent years and got chewed out by the PK husband for being a lousy steward. Needless to say, she was not amused. Furthermore, the Stewardship improves quickly once the wife starts doing her thing. Sure, a starting stewardship 15 is much better than 5, and I might reveal a ballpark 'level' on an Intrigue roll:
1. 'She has been looking after her father's estate since she was 16, after her mother's death, and the manor looks like it is doing very well.'
2. 'She is famous for her sense of style, but has spent her time at court learning courtly skills.'
3. 'She is the handmaiden to Lady Eloise, who is famous for her Stewardship. She probably has learned something of Stewardship from observation, but has little practical experience herself.'

Fertility is even harder to gauge, especially as this random roller is not intended to model widows, but girls from 16 to 21, looking for their first husbands. I.e. they would be, by default, virgins. How do you see a woman's fertility from that information? I guess you could look at potential married sisters and mother, but even that would be only a slight indication. And would require the GM to model the whole family branch. If you wish to do that, more power to you, but I have enough NPCs to keep track of without adding in-law branches for all the PKs. :)

Like said, dowry, status and beauty are easier to see up front, and those are already included into the Dowry number... Albeit beauty is -decreasing- dowry, as the father figures that he can find a suitable husband with less of a dowry for his beautiful daughter. Status (i.e. father's class) is already the primary root of dowry, alongside with the daughter number. Of course, if the father is looking to marry his beautiful daughter up a class, he might very well dig a bit deeper into his pockets.

The whole point of this 'value calculation' would be to measure how hard it should be for the PK to win the lady's hand? I think it is too dependent on the status of the PK and also the situation of the campaign.

Another very very interesting trait of a wife might be 'number of male relatives'. (D6-1?)
These male relatives can be called upon (as knights I assume) just as other family knights.
And if this number is low and they all die the wife would become heiress...


Hmm. I tend to keep heiresses under rather tight GM control: they become available only when the GM decides that it is appropriate for the lady to inherit. Granted, it might be possible for the wife to inherit if all the other family is dead. However, your simple system has two features I dislike:
1) The in-law knights have also their own family's affairs to look after. They would not become instantly the PK's family knights. Just look at the current family knight situation: there are only some odd maternal knights in there. And even less in 485, when the mother is supposed to be a heiress. But sure, they might contribute if there is something important enough to arouse their interest. I would certainly not allow a PK to summon them up willy-nilly (not that I do that with other Family knights either) to 'kill them off' in risky adventures in order for his wife to inherit! (Not that I think you are suggesting that either. I remember from our discussions that you are even more evil GM than I am!)
2) The suggested roll ignores all possibility of: underaged/non-knighted heirs (brothers), children of those dead brothers, other sisters and their heirs. Of course, you could do another roll to get the number of them, too, but this then goes to very close to the comment I made in the previous reply: modelling the in-laws family line is too much work for me. Not to mention that the number would change with time, not only knights dying but more being born. Frankly, I prefer to keep the wife's heiress status either a plot point from the first or to raise it when I feel like it might become an interesting adventure.

Of course, the number of family knights would also depend on the status. A banneret would be more likely to have been able to outfit more of his sons/brothers, than a knight errant. And a commoner would be unlikely to have any family knights.

Maybe something like this... (always one knight, the father/brother)
Banneret: 2d6-1
Vassal: 1d6
Household: 1d3
Errant: 1d2
Commoner: 0

I guess you could roll 1d6-1 for 'male line' persons (brothers, brothers' children) as you suggested and maybe 1d6-1 sisters/co-inheritors (all daughters inherit equally). Like you said, it might be an interesting number if the rolls are low, and it would be simple enough to be done quickly. On a 0/0 result, the girl would be the sole heiress and her value would sky-rocket (a banneret's heiress would be a suitable wife to an Earl, and a vassal knight's heiress would be fit for a banneret). Even in the case of a household knight, IF the knight owns his own equipment, that would be a nice boost to her dowry even if the PK husband might have to wait for a while to collect.

As for following up, maybe do a simple 1d6 roll each year in each of the two categories: 1 = -1 person, 2 - 4 = no change, 5 - 6 = +1 person. Might ignore that for co-inheritors if the father is already old and unlikely to father more daughters, but the 'male line' might produce grandsons and granddaughters who'd trump the sisters/aunts. If the male line is 0 as well, then it is up to whether or not the father is old enough (GM's call), but I would assume that in such a case, it might actually be something negotiated out with the prospective husband, especially if the heiress is about to marry upwards.

Heiress should be under GM control. But even heiress needs stats, or if you are off to some far land, save the king and ask to marry rich heiress.
Are they available etc? Woman with low 'worth' can be easily married off, but those with high worth (indeed likely heiresses) should require many quests/favors.
So a worth value is nice to have as GM to indicate how many other suitors there are, how easy it is convince the warden to let you marry her etc..
Concerning not knowing certain traits, that's why you give the GM a known 'value' and a secret 'value'.
It's just a GM guideline so that he can quickly estimate worth instead of reading through lengthy stat blocks..
You should btw create the output such that the GM can copy paste player-info and GM-info separately.

Concerning family knights, I fully agree you cant add those to your own family knights, but eg if your kids (and thus your wife kids) are endangered they could be asked to help.
And yes, I would like some details of the family you marry into (it's clear you never married, knowing about your in-laws is very important :) ).

And while rich heiress are under strict GM/Lord control, those with maybe two brothers is not, and some dastardly player might think that with that big battle coming up his wife might become sole heir...

You say all daughters inherit equally? I thought it went to husband of elder daughter...?

Inlaw family knights (for non-heiress):
Banneret: 2d6-1
Vassal: 1d6
Household: 1d3
Errant: 1d2
Commoner: 0

#of possible inheritors:
1D6-1 males or #inlaw-knights, whichever higher
1D6-1 females

Personally I would like at this point for a whole family-generator to take over, but for those without computer support:
Each year: 1 = -1 person, 2 - 5 = no change, 6 = +1 person
[note lower odds +1, given large fatalities in this era]

fg,
Thijs



fg,
Thijs

Typing on my phone so keeping this short.

Couple of numbers for wife's family is ok. Full treatment impractical since we don't have time even for pk family knights.

All daughters inherit equally, eldest has no preferred status under the law

Normal conditions: more children than deaths so families expand. -1 if war or sickness. Campaign events and GM whim may influence this too.

As some of you may have noticed, the website (Jesper's) hosting the wife generator program has been down quite some time. While I am talking with Thijs about alternatives, like him hosting it on DrPendragon webpage, I have been too busy to really pursue it right now. Another alternative would be a BotEnt -compliant wife generator, but naturally we'd need permission from Nocturnal for that.

In any case, here are some zipped text files to tide people over. They should be pretty self-explanatory: random means that father's class was random, while vassal means it was set to a vassal knight (the most common father-in-law class for PKs).

And some more, which I didn't manage to fit into a single post.

I figured that Saxon wives would be such a rare occurrence (such as Post-Badon) that one file would do.

"Hey, what about us Picts? Don't we get one?"
"And, I be wondering 'bout us too. Although it would be wonderful to return to the emerald isle, I'm thinking the sea be a bit too dangerous to travel on"

Civilized Picts: Just use the Cymric ones and slap an APP penalty. Assuming Picts still get the -3 APP.

If you are a Heathen Pict from the Highlands, you need to die in a fire, you ambushing, treacherous so and so!

"No one would go to Ireland for a wife, right Mark!"

"No one would go to Ireland for a wife, right Mark!"

Cymric Pagans would do well enough. Culturally they are not that far off, if you are considering the civilized Irish of Leinster, etc.

Besides... if you are going to go and get a wife from Ireland, Pictland or the Continent (apart from Cymric Brittany), I would HOPE that the GM has some idea what he wants to throw at you, rather than just roll randomly. Or if he rolls randomly, he ought to be able to adapt the random write-up to match what he has in mind.

Cymric Pagans would do well enough. Culturally they are not that far off, if you are considering the civilized Irish of Leinster, etc.

Besides... if you are going to go and get a wife from Ireland, Pictland or the Continent (apart from Cymric Brittany), I would HOPE that the GM has some idea what he wants to throw at you, rather than just roll randomly. Or if he rolls randomly, he ought to be able to adapt the random write-up to match what he has in mind.

Just yanking your chain, Morien. Thank you for the files, they'll be useful.
IMO, I think all lady candidates should be personalized, though there's an old-school appeal to rolling randomly for something that so intimately may screw up a PK's life (or, complete it).

--Khanwulf

"No one would go to Ireland for a wife, right Mark!"

But the history of the Picts say they did.

Aaaaaah. This will tide me over while we (hopefully) get a permanent solution.

This is great, Morien, thanks! Any chance you could make the source code available?