Lamorak
10-14-2013, 01:42 AM
Just when I thought I finally had the various mounted/infantry/greatspear/lance bonuses squared away, the BoB 2nd ed completely muddies the waters.
First, then, is my understanding going into the BoB 2nd ed.
KAP 5.1, p. 90
This skill dictates a character’s use of the great spear (sometimes called a “pike”), a heavy two-handed spear used to strike and stab. A great spear grants a +5 modifier when used by foot soldiers against horsemen (thus negating the footmen’s normal disadvantage). The great spear is long enough that it also negates the +5 lance modifier versus non-lance weapons.
KAP 5.1, p. 120
If a Lance Charge is made against any opponent other than another charging lancer, the lancer gets a +5 modifier to his Lance Skill
KAP 5.1, p.121
As noted in “Combat Modifiers,” a mounted character fighting an enemy who is afoot gains a +5 modifier to his weapon skill unless the footman is armed with a great spear or halberd. This modifier stacks with that gained from a lance charge (for a total of +10), if applicable.
To me, these above three quotes combine to mean:
Regular combat:
Lance charge vs. infantry: +10/-5
Lance charge vs. great spear: +5/-
Lance charge vs. mounted (no lance): +5/-
Lance charge vs. Lance Charge: -/-
Correct so far?
On to the Errata candidates...
From BoB, p. 22
The First Charge Bonus of +5 to Lance applies to all units following the successful Army Commander roll. No unit in the failing Commander’s army gets the bonus. Infantry units facing cavalry use their bonus instead to deny the enemy cavalry from getting its normal charge bonus. They can of course charge against other infantry, and gain +5 to their combat skill. Archer units in the losing army take a -5 penalty to their skill (they’re rattled), and those on winning are granted a +5 bonus (packed targets!)
To me, this means that the "First Charge Bonus" is in addition to the "normal charge bonus". Therefore:
-units in an army that wins this roll gains a +5 IN ADDITION to everything else, unless that army is infantry charging mounted, in which case the enemy mounted troops get no "normal" charge bonus.
For mounted knights, this means: +15/-5 vs infantry, +10/- vs great spear, +10/- vs mounted (no lance), or +5/- vs opposing lance charge
-units in an army that loses this roll lose their lance charge bonus vs infantry, and an additional -5 to Archer units.
For mounted knights, this means: +5/-5 vs infantry, +5/- vs great spear, +5/+5 vs mounted (no lance), or -/+5 vs opposing lance charge
Reasoning: this bonus is due to successful maneuvering, not any inherent advantage. Therefore "Charge" and "charge" is somewhat confusing, but they are two entirely different reasons for a modifier.
If I've interpreted this correctly, than the only errata needed here is some clarification that "First Charge Bonus" is in addition to all else, not another way of talking about the normal lance charge bonus. A table like I've laid out wouldn't hurt either. If I'm wrong, well then we need clarification that direction too.
Both examples disagree with this interpretation, but they also seem to disagree with, well, everything I've quoted before that too.
BoB, p. 103:
Addressing your players, say something like, “Here I make a roll for King Ælle, and one of you can do it for King Uther. Our result is Ælle 12, Uther 17. Uther wins, and thus his army — the player knights, you guys — get the Charge Bonus! However, scanning the list of enemies shows they are primarily armed with two-handed spears, so the bonus cancelled out anyway!" (See First Charge Bonus, p. 22).
Step 4: Melee Combat
Continue to go step by step. First, player knights determine their melee skill: (Lance or Spear Expertise), remembering the lance charge modifier (+5, mounted vs. infantry).
At the very least, it's just not clear at all. "The bonus cancelled out anyway"? On reading that my very first reaction was, "What? Huh? What just happened??" Admittedly, I'm not very bright, but this first battle example should be for dummies...
2nd example
BoB, p. 112:
Lord Wolf wins the contest! The players receive the +5 First Charge Bonus against their opponent for this round only.
...
Conditions: a +5 bonus is gained, for fighting vs. Infantry
Determination Phase: The players should make sure they have their combat modifiers in order. Immediate Conditions: Since the knights are
charging Warriors armed with Great Spears they do not get the normal +5 Charge bonus to their Lance skill
It definitely seems like the BoB examples are conflating the First Charge Bonus with the regular charge bonus. But if this is the case, then the determination of First Charge to begin with becomes increasingly pointless and/or confusing. If they are the same thing, do they stack? Does First Charge replace regular charge? I could go on and on with the questions the logic of these weird examples brings up, but it's clear to me that either the examples are wrong and/or the whole First Charge Bonus needs some major clarification.
First, then, is my understanding going into the BoB 2nd ed.
KAP 5.1, p. 90
This skill dictates a character’s use of the great spear (sometimes called a “pike”), a heavy two-handed spear used to strike and stab. A great spear grants a +5 modifier when used by foot soldiers against horsemen (thus negating the footmen’s normal disadvantage). The great spear is long enough that it also negates the +5 lance modifier versus non-lance weapons.
KAP 5.1, p. 120
If a Lance Charge is made against any opponent other than another charging lancer, the lancer gets a +5 modifier to his Lance Skill
KAP 5.1, p.121
As noted in “Combat Modifiers,” a mounted character fighting an enemy who is afoot gains a +5 modifier to his weapon skill unless the footman is armed with a great spear or halberd. This modifier stacks with that gained from a lance charge (for a total of +10), if applicable.
To me, these above three quotes combine to mean:
Regular combat:
Lance charge vs. infantry: +10/-5
Lance charge vs. great spear: +5/-
Lance charge vs. mounted (no lance): +5/-
Lance charge vs. Lance Charge: -/-
Correct so far?
On to the Errata candidates...
From BoB, p. 22
The First Charge Bonus of +5 to Lance applies to all units following the successful Army Commander roll. No unit in the failing Commander’s army gets the bonus. Infantry units facing cavalry use their bonus instead to deny the enemy cavalry from getting its normal charge bonus. They can of course charge against other infantry, and gain +5 to their combat skill. Archer units in the losing army take a -5 penalty to their skill (they’re rattled), and those on winning are granted a +5 bonus (packed targets!)
To me, this means that the "First Charge Bonus" is in addition to the "normal charge bonus". Therefore:
-units in an army that wins this roll gains a +5 IN ADDITION to everything else, unless that army is infantry charging mounted, in which case the enemy mounted troops get no "normal" charge bonus.
For mounted knights, this means: +15/-5 vs infantry, +10/- vs great spear, +10/- vs mounted (no lance), or +5/- vs opposing lance charge
-units in an army that loses this roll lose their lance charge bonus vs infantry, and an additional -5 to Archer units.
For mounted knights, this means: +5/-5 vs infantry, +5/- vs great spear, +5/+5 vs mounted (no lance), or -/+5 vs opposing lance charge
Reasoning: this bonus is due to successful maneuvering, not any inherent advantage. Therefore "Charge" and "charge" is somewhat confusing, but they are two entirely different reasons for a modifier.
If I've interpreted this correctly, than the only errata needed here is some clarification that "First Charge Bonus" is in addition to all else, not another way of talking about the normal lance charge bonus. A table like I've laid out wouldn't hurt either. If I'm wrong, well then we need clarification that direction too.
Both examples disagree with this interpretation, but they also seem to disagree with, well, everything I've quoted before that too.
BoB, p. 103:
Addressing your players, say something like, “Here I make a roll for King Ælle, and one of you can do it for King Uther. Our result is Ælle 12, Uther 17. Uther wins, and thus his army — the player knights, you guys — get the Charge Bonus! However, scanning the list of enemies shows they are primarily armed with two-handed spears, so the bonus cancelled out anyway!" (See First Charge Bonus, p. 22).
Step 4: Melee Combat
Continue to go step by step. First, player knights determine their melee skill: (Lance or Spear Expertise), remembering the lance charge modifier (+5, mounted vs. infantry).
At the very least, it's just not clear at all. "The bonus cancelled out anyway"? On reading that my very first reaction was, "What? Huh? What just happened??" Admittedly, I'm not very bright, but this first battle example should be for dummies...
2nd example
BoB, p. 112:
Lord Wolf wins the contest! The players receive the +5 First Charge Bonus against their opponent for this round only.
...
Conditions: a +5 bonus is gained, for fighting vs. Infantry
Determination Phase: The players should make sure they have their combat modifiers in order. Immediate Conditions: Since the knights are
charging Warriors armed with Great Spears they do not get the normal +5 Charge bonus to their Lance skill
It definitely seems like the BoB examples are conflating the First Charge Bonus with the regular charge bonus. But if this is the case, then the determination of First Charge to begin with becomes increasingly pointless and/or confusing. If they are the same thing, do they stack? Does First Charge replace regular charge? I could go on and on with the questions the logic of these weird examples brings up, but it's clear to me that either the examples are wrong and/or the whole First Charge Bonus needs some major clarification.